Bob Jones: Bigot, Homophobe, University President

FROM: Tim
DATE: Sunday November 19, 2000 -- 2:05:49AM

Ryan MacMichael - Regarding your 02/09/2000 Ping. Seeing as how I hadn't heard of Ping or you before stumbling onto you via Google - I shouldn't care what you think about a decent, academic rigorous, religious school that has fine graduates (inlcuding the investment banker-attorney I work with and multiple graduates in the US Congress. "it's a wonder that they manage to make it through each day without killing themselves or someone else" -- love that tolerance Ryan! I like to browse through the site you contribute to for a laugh. And by the way, you frighten me. Your pretty quick to judge a school without having set foot on the campus. Why is it that the liberal left always look like stupid nerds--Bill Gates?)

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Sunday November 19, 2000 -- 2:13:05AM

Tim -- I have no problem with organized religion or Christians whatsoever, but my problem comes with educational institutions that didn't remove restrictions on interracial dating from their literature until this year. I have no doubt that there have been "fine graduates" from Bob Jones University, but please explain to me how you can attack me for tolerence when you're in support of a University that does not allow openly gay alumni onto their campus.

I'd love to be enlightened, though, Tim. If you have rebuttals for any of the specific charges made against your school over the last 20 years, feel free to address them. I'm listening.

FROM: Robert
DATE: Sunday November 19, 2000 -- 11:14:52AM

"Why is it that the liberal left always look like stupid nerds--Bill Gates?"

Tim--It's funny that you can kill your own credibility so fast after trying to tear someone else's down. I have no ill feelings about saying I hope you and anyone like you dies a painful death.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Sunday November 19, 2000 -- 2:12:18PM

Robert -- Always our good will ambassador... heh. :)

FROM: Matt
DATE: Sunday November 19, 2000 -- 3:50:15PM

Death is not something that should be hoped upon anyone Robert. Man you need to get out of that mindstate, thats some sick shite.

FROM: Paul
DATE: Sunday November 19, 2000 -- 11:11:10PM

I found this sentence couplet to be quite telling, from Tim's post:

Your [sic] pretty quick to judge a school without having set foot on the campus. Why is it that the liberal left always look like stupid nerds--Bill Gates?)

I'm interested in seeing your reply to Ryan's questions, though, Tim.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Monday November 20, 2000 -- 12:38:09AM

Paul -- I have a strange feeling that Tim won't be returning. Call it a hunch.

FROM: Tim
DATE: Monday November 20, 2000 -- 10:33:38AM

Ryan - since you're listening, I'll speak again. Regarding other comments made on your web page of fine literature (which I'm likely authenticating by this response). The label that Bob Jones University is "my school" was made in haste. I hold a degree from a public, state school in the western United States.

I will let Robert's kind words of life & kindness stand on its own.

I am astounded that I have to elucidate the next point: as to the Bill Gates comment, I was referring to Ryan's attack as to the physical appearance of the man, Bob Jones, as being "evil." A party usually resorts to ad hominem attacks when the arsenal of reason & logic are rendered ineffective.

As to the arsenal of reason & logic, I have absolutely no patent bias or judgments against the gay lifestyle or racial minorities. Bob Jones University should have the right to exclude any person they desire from entering their campus for any reason (the campus is private property, not a public institution, let alone a public forum of any type as they receive absolute no federal tax dollars). Yes, the university restricted inter-racial dating (which I personally oppose on a multitude of levels); however, the same liberty afforded this school to allow these policies is the same liberty that affords the gay couple to do what they please in their home (which is also obviously private property, not a public institution, let alone a public forum).

As to the question of race that Bob Jones University asked on its application for admission, I had to check the "white" & "male" boxes numerous times on the scholarship applications I made for college. Yes, the forms claimed the race & sex information was voluntary, but numerous state & federal court cases have shown that these forms are used for granting minority scholarships. As a white male I should be brimming with racism because our state schools give out more scholarship money to African Americans and women disproportionately than to white males.

As to the alleged remarks by Bob Jones regarding Catholicism & Mormonism, this view is shared by millions of Protestants worldwide. The difference of opinion as to Catholic doctrine was the reason for the European Reformation instigated by Martin Luther. Luther, Wesley and other protestant leaders throughout history did NOT believe all religions lead to the same destiny. Again, who are we to label as hateful & evil because of their religious beliefs?

Many Fundamentalist, Jewish Synagogues restrict women from worshipping in the synagogues simultaneously with men, but there is no outcry of intolerance or hatred uttered towards this group from the pages of Ping. Sunni Muslim practice also places women in a subservient role, requiring wives to walk behind husbands in public. This religious practice may also seem to be abnormal or intolerant; however wishes of painful death and accusations of hate are not pointed against this group either versus the truly hate filled attitudes toward fundamentalist Christians.

In talking with graduates of Bob Jones & law enforcement officials in the Greenville, SC area it is interesting to note that there has never been a case of rape (of any type), murder, assault or serious acts of vandalism or theft within the confines of the school. While I attended college there were cases of each of these crimes (except murder) on the campus of the school I attended. What horrible things the students at Bob Jones must be learning!! (that was sarcasm Robert).

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Monday November 20, 2000 -- 11:05:41AM

Tim --

Good to hear back from you. I was hoping you wouldn't be a one-time visitor who commented and then left.

The label that Bob Jones University is "my school" was made in haste. I hold a degree from a public, state school in the western United States.

My mistake. Re-reading your original message, I realize I misinterpreted the tone.

Bob Jones University should have the right to exclude any person they desire from entering their campus for any reason (the campus is private property

Maybe this is the case, however 1.) they WERE tax-exempt originally and had their status revoked, and 2.) this doesn't mean they're beyond criticism. I have many issues with Christian fundamentalists (based on first-hand experiences) that I won't go into here, but whether an organization is private or not, I'm still going to voice my opinion on the issue.

Many Fundamentalist, Jewish Synagogues restrict women from worshipping in the synagogues simultaneously with men, but there is no outcry of intolerance or hatred uttered towards this group from the pages of Ping.

The pages of the Ping don't claim to be a complete picture of how either one of us feels -- don't take our lack of commentary on an issue indicate support of it.

As to the question of race that Bob Jones University asked on its application for admission

The link to the admission form now is no t what it was when I originally wrote this piece. Back then, they were also asking for the race of your spouse, regardless of whether or not the spouse was attending the school.

As a white male I should be brimming with racism because our state schools give out more scholarship money to African Americans and women disproportionately than to white males.

I've never had any problem with this -- the effects of white male supremecy are being felt to this day, and I see no problem with compensory action being taken to help even the playing field. But this isn't a Bob Jones-issue, so I won't go into it.

rape (of any type), murder, assault or serious acts of vandalism or theft within the confines of the school

I would attribute this to the fact that everybody there is very similar as far as their belief system. The case might be different if their student body was more representative of American society. Whether this is good or bad, who knows, but I do have a problem with a "University" that didn't allow black students admission until the 1970's.

I will admit that the University seems to be changing a lot of their policies, but the fact that they didn't do so until they began receiving negative press disturbs me. Their history is exclusionary, and I have a tough time believing that things can change that quickly.

Just my opinion.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Monday November 20, 2000 -- 11:10:57AM

Incidentally, BJU is not totally without federal funding... "Greenville County Council has supplied public monies to BJU, despite it's for-profit status" and BJU's art museum received federal funding as of 1998 (reference).

FROM: Robert
DATE: Monday November 20, 2000 -- 12:25:29PM

Tim--Just to clarify, I was making a sick joke. It's not always pleasant but neither is life. I'm glad you didn't take it too seriously. On the other hand, I feel a right to back up Ryan when people want to compare him to someone so widely villified as Bill Gates. And I do understand sarcasm. It is my favorite tool to deal with things I don't feel blasting outright.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Monday November 20, 2000 -- 2:18:59PM

Found an interesting article by a BJU graduate.

FROM: Monica
DATE: Tuesday November 21, 2000 -- 5:10:55PM

Even if this ping was years old and I found it, man oh man, I feel the need to say something, especially after reading the linked-to article. I hope my thoughts are not too disjointed.

man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh upon the heart" (I Samuel 16:7d)

Does that quote condone man's looking upon outward appearances? I should hope not. And that's why it doesn't make sense to me that there are any places, let alone those that espouse Christian values, taken straight from the Bible, that exclude or discriminate in ANY way against outward appearances. And what is an outward appearance? For me it isn't just about skin color or what you wear.

To me, the quote means that God cares about how we treat each other (with respect, kindness, and love, ideally) and how we treat God (the same). It does NOT mean to me that God cares WHO we love and treat with kindness and respect.
If two people of the same gender have intimate relations, and it is out of love and respect, who am I to say it's wrong?
Who am I to pass judgement on anyone, for any reason, anyway? Who REALLY is just in judgement, anyway? For me the only answer to the last question is: only God.

So then who's to say what religion is right or wrong, or what is blasphemous ("the Vatican's [blasphemous] religious art" was mentioned in the article), or who has a chance for salvation, or what interpretation of the Bible is the right one...
we can try to guess, we can theorize, we can build schools that teach what certain groups think the ideal is, but in the end, we DON'T know. Only God does.

So that's me on the soap-box.
What concerns me also is WHY people would choose to go to BJU. Are they not strong enough in their faith to be in other places? Do they think that they're better off in God's eyes to be around people of the same point of view, background, etc., all the time? (where is the chance to REALLY learn when you're in a homogeneous environment?)
And hey, what do BJU alumni and current students think of the KKK? It seems to me that, fundamentally, they're pretty similar groups. As for the violence on the campus of BJU, yeah, I'm sure the KKK members don't go after each other, either.
Ugh.

FROM: Monica
DATE: Tuesday November 21, 2000 -- 5:16:19PM

bonus points to anyone who realizes that "values taken straight from the Bible" is gleefully sarcastic :)

FROM: Ginneh
DATE: Saturday January 13, 2001 -- 1:02:44AM

Tim, I'm a Sunni Muslim and I have NEVER been subserviant to anyone, nor have I had to walk behind any man in public. Read a book about Islam, or better yet The Quran before you go posting false info about a religion which you obviously know nothing about.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Saturday January 13, 2001 -- 11:03:21AM

Ginneh -- right on! Unfortunately, Tim seems to have disappeared after his second post, so I doubt we'll see him respond to yours...

FROM: dave
DATE: Sunday January 14, 2001 -- 5:52:42PM

Ah yes, BJU is back in the news...

John Ashcroft, now nominated for attorney general (where he could conceivably set back our society back to the 50s) spoke at their graduation a couple years ago, and said "America is different. We have no king but Jesus."

Hmm. I didn't know we were a monarchy. And although the majority of Americans may be Christians of various stripes, I think there is a sizable minority that would disagree with the former senator (who incidentally, to the credit of Missourians, was beaten by a dead opponent.).

It's people like this that give religion a bad name, and why I have flirted with agnosticism in recent years.

FROM: Amy
DATE: Monday January 15, 2001 -- 5:34:05PM

You say BJU is a bigoted, intolerant school.
Yet I think it's ironic how you can't tolerate those who have different views than your own.
I am a graduate from BJU who is proud of where I've been and where the Lord is leading my life.
I am not a racist nor do I hate those who aren't like me.
There are acts that I believe are sin such as homosexuality, and I base that on the Bible. I don't hate you if you don't believe the same way. I don't hate you if you are a homosexual. I may not like your sin. But I don't hate you at all. I love you like Christ loved and died for you and me. I base that on the Bible too.
I may not embrace your views, but I don't hate you for not believing the way I do.
So your views may be different than mine. Why do you have to hate me because of that.That's what I call intolerance.

FROM: Matt
DATE: Monday January 15, 2001 -- 6:02:05PM

My views I'm sure are basically the same as Amy's in many areas, so I don't really have to go on a long diatribe like everyone else. Anyway, I find it funny that people question things such as Ashcroft saying "we have no king but Jesus" and then forget that those same principles were what this nation was founded on. Yes this nation has a separation of church and state and freedom of religion, but it also was founded on the principles that we would rely of God to lead us through all our mistakes and trials and tribulations as a people of sin. People seem to think that someone like Ashcroft would set us back 50 years, and I have to admit I'm not too hip on his stances, however is where we are now better then where we were then? I would say in some areas yes. But in terms of family structure, respect for a people of faith and upholding of Biblical principles no.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Monday January 15, 2001 -- 11:29:49PM

Amy -- I'm not quite sure where you get that I hate people from BJU... I never once said that. What I said was that I disagree with what they believe (which is my right). And Bob Jones' hateful statements towards Mormans and Catholic offend me, as does the school's treatment of their homosexual alumni and their stance towards interracial dating up until recently.

In my opinion, when it comes down to it, there is no one perfect "truth," at least not one that we can confirm as such. I don't want to get into an argument about the Bible and it's place (entire books have been written about the incest that's rampant in the Bible as well as many "un-Christian" values throughout it, if the stories are taken literally), but it's clear to me that more people need more tolerance and understanding of others.

FROM: Belinda
DATE: Wednesday January 17, 2001 -- 6:21:55PM

Ryan--

One question for you. Do you even know WHY the interracial dating rule was established by Bob Jones University in the first place? Do your homework and then come back and tell us what you find out. I think it will be surprising.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Wednesday January 17, 2001 -- 7:43:40PM

Belinda:

Bob Jones University is opposed to intermarriage because it breaks down the barriers God has established. ... Although there is no verse in the Bible that dogmatically says that races should not intermarry, the whole plan of God as He has dealt with the races down through the ages indicates that interracial marriage is not best for man.

From an article in the Boston Globe.

I think the quote itself says quite enough.

For what looks to be ongoing coverage on this issue, this page seems to be quite good.

FROM: Belinda
DATE: Wednesday January 17, 2001 -- 9:34:01PM

Yes, I have read that page...Bob Jones also states..
"Of course, we realize that this is controversial position and that there are many fine Christians who disagree with us on it. We recognize the right of other Christians to hold differing views; we only hope that they will recognize the sincerity and love with which we hold ours. Christian students of all races find a happy and harmonious atmosphere here at the University, and the number of minority students grows every year. We believe prejudice to be Biblically wrong, and it is not tolerated in the student body."

I think that also speaks for itself. HOWEVER, from what I understand, that is not why they originally established that rule. Many years ago, (when interracial dating was not a popular thing to do) they allowed interracial dating. But then the parents of a interracial couple threatened to sue the school if they allowed it to continue. One thing led to another, and probably because they didn't want to endure lawsuits for the rest of their lives coupled with an ever-growing "one-world" philosophy, they decided to make it a rule.

Bob Jones University doesn't teach hate Ryan. Yes, they disagree with Catholicism and Mormonism and ANY religion that directly opposes what the Bible teaches. But disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you hate them. If that were the case, I would say you hated Christians or were "Christian-phobic." Right? But since I don't know you, I can't say that. And if you were honest, you have to say that you really don't know Bob Jones or anything about that University. How many people do you know who have graduated from that College? I know many many people, some of which happen to have been my teachers in high school. Never once, have I ever heard them preach bigotry or hatred to me or anyone else. What if the situation had been reversed? What if George W. Bush or John Ashcroft had spoken at an institution that had "harsh" words about Christianity? Would we have the same "hoop-la?" I don't think so. But that's Ok. Because the Bible says that those who follow Jesus will be persecuted and will be hated.
That's why Christians have been fed to lions, had their heads chopped off and burned at the stake by Catholics and other groups for centuries. I only wish you the best Ryan and would encourage you to get a Bible, stay open-minded and really search the Scriptures for truth. Kindest regards!

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Wednesday January 17, 2001 -- 10:02:58PM

Belinda: Don't worry about me, I own several Bibles. And several translations of the Qu'ran. And Taoist literature as well as books from Confucianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Caodaiism, and Rastafarianism. :)

Truth is, Belinda, when I wrote this article almost a year ago, I didn't know much about Bob Jones and his University and its history. But, honestly, as I read through the University's own site as well as writings by Bob Jones and representatives of his school, quite honestly, I became even more turned off. The history of exclusion disturbs me (backing down because of a lawsuit doesn't seem like much justifcation to me to discriminate against interracial couples) and their treatment of gay alumni is offensive to me.

I will say, though, that the main problem I see is their government funding. Though they don't receive direct funding anymore, there is still indirect funding of the school, which I believe I have a reference for in one of my earlier links.

Thanks for your contributions, Belinda -- a little debate is always nice. :)

FROM: Douglas Orr
DATE: Thursday February 1, 2001 -- 5:56:29PM

I've been a police officer for the past fourteen years. Today, I sit mostly in an interview room listening to the world's most horrifying atrocities. I hear how men violate their daughters. I hear how mothers kill their children. I listen to bigots boast of how they beat minorities for just that reason. I sit in disbelief of how "enlightened" our society has become.

Then, I think back to my days at Bob Jones University and how peaceful the campus was. Nobody ever fell out of a dorm window to kill themselves because of alcohol. Women didn't have to worry about being raped on their way back to the dorms. There were no security phones installed on every corner. I met each evening in groups with people who shared spiritual values like compassion and consideration with each other. Certainly, it was a place like none other.

I would give real money for just an inch of Bob Jones University in my life right now.

FROM: Matt
DATE: Thursday February 1, 2001 -- 6:05:00PM

Douglas-
I think where there is Christ there will always be that peace that you found at BJU. I know when I'm in church or a fellowship group on a regular basis nothing can get me down because I'm feeding my spirit with the love of God.

FROM: Carol
DATE: Saturday February 3, 2001 -- 12:16:29PM

All I can say is ditto to what those who defend Bob Jones right to believe and practice their faith have said. It was very obvious that the Ping article was written in ignorance, and that the person had absolutely no personal knowledge of what the school is really like. " Don't judge a book by it's cover."I would hate to say the impression I would get of the person who wrote this article, because I do not know him ,and therefore cannot really know his intent. I cannot judge his heart, but I believe that God does.

FROM: Paul
DATE: Saturday February 3, 2001 -- 12:29:13PM

I find it impressive that people will quickly judge Ryan by his one Ping article out of hundreds, and then turn around and say, "Don't judge BJU by a few media reports!"

Do as I say, not as I do.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Saturday February 3, 2001 -- 3:32:16PM

Carol -- As I've said a number of times before, nowhere in my admittedly rude Ping did I say that they didn't have a right to their beliefs. But I have the same right to criticize their beliefs, especially when they are still partially funded (indirectly) by public tax dollars.

I even got an e-mail inviting me for a personal visit of the school when I'm in the area. And you know, if I am in the area, I will take the person up on their offer. I'll visit the campus with an open mind, but there better be someone there ready to answer my onslaught of questions as well.

FROM: FayJay
DATE: Saturday March 10, 2001 -- 7:10:35PM

Great article, Tim
I'm glad to see that it's not only non-whites that see the bigotry behing Bob Jones University. It's a sad fact, but Christian fundamentalism has been the cause of many of the history's atrocities, from The Crusades all the way up to the horrors of Bosnia. I have no problem with Christianity in it's true form, but I do have a problem with the fundamentalist right-wing interpretation. Schools like Bob Jones harbors those with this point-of-view, and I'm not afraid to say that it really scares me.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Saturday March 10, 2001 -- 11:29:49PM

FayJay -- I think you meant to thank me (Tim was rather pro-BJU)... but, thanks. :) You've pretty much stated my beliefs as well... everyone has to find their own path to God, but it's unfortunate when it comes down to holding back others (culturally, physically, mentally) in the process.

FROM: Jay
DATE: Wednesday March 28, 2001 -- 4:04:49PM

Interesting to note that the masses all think they must find their own way to God, even though the Bible's instruction is in direct conflict to that notion...

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Wednesday March 28, 2001 -- 6:52:08PM

I don't quite get your point, Jay... if someone is finding his own way to God, then isn't the literal word of the Bible less important?

FROM: KJ
DATE: Thursday July 5, 2001 -- 3:24:01PM

"everyone has to find their own path to God, but it's unfortunate when it comes down to holding back others (culturally, physically, mentally) in the process"

This forum has long ended, but I do have to ask one question for the comment above, Ryan. Who exactly is being held back by BJU? The students? Faculty or staff? Please clarify!
Thank you.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Thursday July 5, 2001 -- 4:45:06PM

KJ -- People that walk onto the BJU campus with a view different than what's expressed there. People that practice religions that Bob Jones considers the "world's religious deceptions." Gay alumni. Etc.

FROM: i am mike
DATE: Thursday July 12, 2001 -- 3:46:14PM

i know this forum is long over too, but i just had to say something.
regarding this statement made much earlier: "Amy -- I'm not quite sure where you get that I hate people from BJU... I never once said that. What I said was that I disagree with what they believe (which is my right)."

ryan, i am not going to rant or rave here. you have generally been very respectful to other people who comment about your article, so i will extend the same courtesy. i am a graduate of BJU. I nearly got kicked out three times. I don't agree with many rules/regulations doctrines, or actions taken by the administration there. i have to say that you may find differences with many things the school says and does, but the people who come out of BJU are not necessarily OF BJU mentality. like amy, i believe the Bible -- all of it. in the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. that is all i will say about that because #1 i believe everything the Bible says and #2 other people don't, so there is no use arguing about it. That being said, homosexuals are (generally) good people. i have not a met a homosexual that i don't like (not in THAT way). yes, i know plenty of them, i have worked with plenty of them, and i have not only gotten along with them, but i would also call some of them friends. where am i going with all of this? i'm getting there. Hang in there. homosexuality has nothing to do with how much i like someone or how "good" or "bad" a person is. i know plenty of Christians who live worse lives than some homosexuals. i'm not going to go on about how great homosexuals are, because i don't believe they are better than any other group of people in the world - just like Christians are no better than any other group in the world. different groups of people believe different things (even fundamentalist Christians), and every single one of them think they are right and everyone else is wrong.
You are 100% right about one thing (I’m sure not just about ONE thing, but that’s how the expression goes). It’s your right to disagree with BJU. It’s my right to go there and learn what I can from the Bible – from people who put a totally different spin on it. Other people have a right to write to you and express how angry or happy they are that you put up the article in the first place. And it’s BJU’s right
I hate clichés, but “don’t judge a book by it’s cover” is a great one for this circumstance. It fits in two ways here. First, I hated many of the things that went on there before I even went. I hate many of the things that go on there now. But I went through 4 ½ years there, and I have emerged untainted by what they have told me. I learned a lot about the Bible and it’s interpretations by people there, but I am not like them. If you knew me, you would agree, I promise you that. Even BJU says I am not like them (because I am banned from campus). And I don’t like the fact that people lump Christians into one big group. And secondly, I went there for 4 ½ years, so I can make a valid critique of the school. People who do not go there do not. Yes, you can take what a 70-year-old handbook (and nearly as old application) and make assumptions, but the fact is, the place is misunderstood. I have a BIG problem with how the school handles certain things. Many of my friends have been kicked out of the place for perfectly harmless things. I had been nearly kicked out three times. And now I am banned from campus. To tell you the truth, I don’t care if I ever see or hear of the place again, but I can say that the place is misunderstood. They don’t hate people. They hate sin (according to the Bible – according to their belief). And who is to say that the Bible is evil? Intolerant people, that’s who.
Ryan, you have not bashed the Bible yet (as far as I have read), so don’t feel as though I am attacking you. The only thing I want to get across to you is that just because people come out of that school, doesn’t mean that we are like them. And the only thing I want to get across to other people is, you don’t know what the school is really like. It is very misunderstood. I have written way too much. I just wanted to write down a lot of things I have been thinking for a while. Peace. I am mike
p.s. I am pretty sure that bju receives no federal money. The Greenville city council is a state organization. salaries and money raised by them are from state and local taxes – not federal.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Thursday July 12, 2001 -- 5:20:22PM

Mike -- Thanks for the thoughtful post. It's an interesting take on the university from someone who wasn't particularly popular with the university itself. :)

Similar to the way that you don't hate the sinner, just the sin, I don't hate the people coming out of BJU (I don't think I've come across that way, and if I did, I apologize), but I definitely hate what BJU, as a university and an institution of learning belives and teaches.

Out of curiosity -- why were you banned from campus?

FROM: mike
DATE: Friday July 13, 2001 -- 7:59:43AM

ryan -- well put. no, you didn't come across as though you hate people who come out of bju. i just got the slight impression that you or other people might think that everyone who goes to the school or comes out of the school thinks like they do. no worries. i just wanted to throw another slant into it. however i feel about how accurate your forum is here, i have to say that that it's healthy for people to post their views (even if they are wrong :) yes, kidding.
why i was banned from campus... long story, but i will give it to you in a nutshell. there is a demerit system there. if you reach 150 in any given semester, you're kicked out. i got over 75 demerits for 3 semesters in a row. but with careful planning, i made the third semester of 75 my last one there anyway. after that, the university decided that i was not of university material. since they couldn't kick me out (i was done anyway), they just told me not to come back until i hear from them. that was december of '99. if you have any questions about the demerit system, let me know. i seem to be an expert now :)
so that's it. thanks for the interesting topic. you're right, debate is good. keep it up, ryan. peace. i am mike

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Wednesday September 19, 2001 -- 1:01:12AM

Here's a picture I've been meaning to post for quite a while...

FROM: A student
DATE: Sunday November 25, 2001 -- 6:59:29PM

Wow, this forum is really old! Still, I feel like I need to put my two bits in...
My grandparents graduated from BJU, and my mom was even born at the Barge Memorial Hospital (on campus). I was never really interested in going to BJU... (I am currently a high school junior), I am a year ahead, and I get really good grades, and after my PSAT I got a letter from MIT, so I was sure that that was where God wanted me to go (what an opportunity). However, because of circumstances after my sophomore year, I am now in the Bob Jones Academy. I never looked forward to it, but now I am glad that I came. The curriculem is challenging, and my teachers are supportive. One of my friends (Mikee) is interracial, and her parents (White and Filipino) are missionaries supported by Bob Jones... and they have been supported by Bob Jones as long as they've been on the field.
I have been to American public schools, and, quite frankly, I would rather wear hose EVERY stinkin' day, wear a skirt that allows my legs to freeze in the winter, and listen to chapel messages every day than EVER go back to the public schools. Why? It's more reasons than I care to type... I had friends in the public schools, and I still keep in contact with them, but I will never look upon my years in the public schools with happiness.
I have alot more to say, but perhaps not now... I have a research report due tomorrow.
-M-
P.S. You sound like a really nice person, Ryan, I just wish you didn't hate BJU so much... they're not perfect (I have my arguments against them that have nothing to do with rules), but they're doind their best for the students.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Sunday November 25, 2001 -- 10:17:34PM

"M" -- feel free to expand on your experiences at BJU, both positive and negative. I'm interested in hearing them.

FROM: M
DATE: Friday November 30, 2001 -- 10:42:06PM

I just got back from the "Lighting Ceremony". All the trees and bushes (and the Bridge of Nations) are now lit up with a ton a Christmas lights. It was alot of fun!
When I and my brother got to the Bob Jones Academy (my other brother will graduate from the college in 2 weeks), we laughed over some of the "rules" (these are not really enforced) in the handbook: guys are supposed to hold the door for girls, and girls should say thank-you. guys should stand when a girl enters a room, and no one can wear Abercrombie and Fitch or Birkenstocks. No big deal - I didn't mind having guys treat me nicely, and although my mom wore Birkenstocks sandals, I didn't wear the products of either of those companies anyways.
The guys do open the doors for me, but no one stands when a girl enters a room. I fit in really well here... even though I'm from California (I'm caucasian), and I'm not used to being in a school so predominately white.
I came to school a week late because I had been in Korea and Vietnam (there are alot of Koreans here... it was so much fun to introduce myself in Korean to them... I picked up alot of Korean words while I was there because I was staying with a family that didn't really speak all that much english), and my teachers worked with me to catch up - I don't think that I would have been able to keep up without them (except my Pre-Calculus teacher... he sometimes forgets that not all of us have our master's in Mathematics).
Maybe I'll put less positive things in later, but I don't have the time right now - I finished my research paper (62/65), but my teacher gave me a literature essay to do (she grades us REALLY tough on lit essays - they're not as easy as other papers), and I have finals coming up.
=)

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Friday November 30, 2001 -- 11:52:34PM

no one can wear Abercrombie and Fitch or Birkenstocks

What was the reason for this? Why these two companies?

Very cool that you got to travel to Vietnam. I've been there myself. :)

FROM: M
DATE: Saturday December 1, 2001 -- 3:13:20PM

I think they are boycotting A&C... there was a reason, but I can't remember, and they say Birkenstocks are too casual. Kids do wear A&C(especially when the clothing isn't labeled with the A&C logo), and I'm sure they wear Birkenstocks... the school just doesn't want kids to wear casual shoes when the rest of the dress code isn't casual.
Vietnam was cool, but scary. I and my youth group went to a cancer hospital (it was overcrowded and stinky), and sang nursery song to all the kids that could fit into the room we were in. They didn't understand us, but they laughed when we did the "hokey-pokey". It was very sad - someone told us how little the hospital did, and a doctor told her that she wasn't supposed to say that...oh well.
I have to finish my lit essay...
=Þ

FROM: bojo
DATE: Tuesday February 12, 2002 -- 7:16:32 pm

Bob Jones practically worships their founder on founder's day. I'd like to see them broadcast what their founder said about blacks when he spoke at a fundraiser for the school to the KKK back in the 20's.
At BJU image is everything. No wonder they folded so quick on their interracial dating policy with a little pressure from the media. And they used to preach on the fact of how Biblical it was.
Hey, everybody's wrong sometime, but BJU nevers has the guts to admit it. What a shame.

FROM: dr
DATE: Friday March 15, 2002 -- 8:08:52 pm

I realize that this article is about a year old but I thought I'd go ahead and vent. I am a current student at BJU. My coming here was mostly due to my father's persuasion. But I have to say that I love it. Not all aspects of it, but I feel that this is where God wants me. God has worked so much in my life since I've been here. I'm not going to go into rules and doctrines now. There is simply too much to cover and I wouldn't know where to start. But if anyone has questions I would be happy to answer them. I think it's important to get info from an 'inside' source. I live on campus all but 3 weeks a year so I consider myself pretty 'inside'. :-) Feel free to email me with any questions you have about the university. A lot of things are misunderstood. And it is truly by the grace of God that this university stands today. my email is dmrogers_2000@yahoo.com
If you do have a question it would be best to email...I'm not sure when I would check the board again. Thanks!

FROM: Michael
DATE: Thursday May 30, 2002 -- 1:59:59 am

I have applied to BJU twice but never gone there. I could have been one of the first deaf students there. One of the things that convinced me not to go was the Fellows report. His report is part of the Biblical Discernment Ministries series of reports on that college. Now I know of one deaf student there and another who I believe just graduted from my high school, I am an '88 graduate, will go there this fall. If they want to go there, even in spite of my advice against going there, they will go. I did not agree with the interracial dating ban, I was somewhat surprised it was rescinded. It would, I admit, been more redeeming of the university had that ban been abolished BEFORE 2000. Bob Jones III would have admitted outright tha the ban hurt the college instead of saying the ban was a small thing. It was not a small thing for years, if I recall rightly. Interracial marriage, as well dating and sex is as American as apple pie. In other words, interracial dating, marriage, and sex is part of the American way.

FROM: Joe Cottrill
DATE: Friday September 27, 2002 -- 3:26:45 pm

So, another anti-BJU site. I am amazed that the ones who hate Bob Jones University are the ones who have never set foot on campus. I am a 1982 graduate of BJU. I am very proud to say that. Until you go there (and I don't mean just drive around and leave) and see for yourself and meet students, faculty and staff, don't talk about the school. I don't criticize how you live because I don't know how you live.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Friday September 27, 2002 -- 9:18:19 pm

Actually, Joe, I have been on campus and talked to people there.

But, that aside, I think I can criticize a school based on its history racist, bigoted policies just fine, especially when they're out there for everyone to see.

FROM: Joe Cottrill
DATE: Saturday September 28, 2002 -- 12:33:54 pm

Okay, since you have been there, I will at least give you that. Not many of BJU's critics have. Your other argument is really silly though. This is America, and if BJU wants to have its policies that others do not share, well big deal. As you indicated, they don't play the hypocrite and try to hide their beliefs. I don't subscribe to your ideals and you are free to have them. It still is not clear to me why you insist on criticizing an institution just because you don't like their beliefs or policies. You call them bigoted, but they are not. I went four years there and worked for the University as well. I think I know better than you, as your visits obviously do not amount to very much time compared to mine.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Saturday September 28, 2002 -- 8:47:51 pm

bigot: One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

A ban, until recently, on interracial dating... shunning of gay alumni... referring to other religions as "religious deceptions."

Sounds mighty bigoted to me.

FROM: Greg
DATE: Monday September 30, 2002 -- 9:50:32 am

Here's a paradox for you.

Doesn't your anti-bigot statements make you a bigot yourself?

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Monday September 30, 2002 -- 10:18:41 am

Greg -- I don't think so (I had thought about that myself before my previous post). I'm not strongly partial to my own group, religion, race, or politics or intolerant of those who differ. In fact, I'm not at all partial to my own group, religion, race, or political affiliation -- I strongly support "other" members of different groups and their rights to express themselves, except where they are discriminatory in nature or infringe on others' liberties.

FROM: Dave
DATE: Wednesday November 6, 2002 -- 5:38:45 pm

Ginneh - (responding to a post on 1/13/01). How would you justify the dreadful treatment of women in Afghanistan, Pakistan & Iraq in the name of Allah. It took an American military presence to allow Muslim women to go to school in Afghanistan. Actually, from my secular education it seems to me that new testament Christianity was rather revolutionary in that it allowed females to partake in religious instruction in the face of patriarchal Roman/Greek world that considered women a sub-class.

FROM: dave
DATE: Wednesday November 6, 2002 -- 7:04:03 pm

this last post may be true, but the current brand of rabid Christianity is doing its best to deny women their reproductive rights. I believe just last week the president stopped funding UN population programs, in order to pander to the anti-choice crowd. It's not enough to limit women's rights here, our government feels the need to do it in countries where real gains in reproductive rights among women would slow population growth and the spread of HIV.

FROM: Chris
DATE: Thursday November 7, 2002 -- 3:38:32 pm

C'mon "d"ave (little d). What repdoductive rights do women in the U.S. NOT have? Abortion & RU 486 is legal in all 50 states. We are giving away condoms in our schools! As for the supposed problem of overpopulation & HIV (I assume your post refers to the geographic areas of Africa & portions of Asia) how much money is enough for these countries to get their acts together? I don't recall reading about any huge improvements in the pread of HIV or reductions in population during the Clinton years when we were throwing money at these countires. If you truly feel these are problems plaguing our world I hope you write a big check to U.N. as I'm sure they'd take your money to help with these problems. At least mainline Christian demoninations for centuries have founded & funded orphanages (old term), children's homes (new terms), women's shelters, women's hotlines, adoption agencies, health centers, hospitals - which are funded by charitable giving (from persons like me). . .

FROM: dave
DATE: Thursday November 7, 2002 -- 4:44:45 pm

What repdoductive rights do women in the U.S. NOT have?

At the moment, women in the US are among the most empowered in the world. But do you *really* think the Republicans and their so-called "mandate" are going to let this stand? John Ashcroft once went on record as being against the birth-control pill, the single most empowering invention ever for women!

I don't recall reading about any huge improvements in the pread of HIV or reductions in population during the Clinton years when we were throwing money at these countires.

You don't read about it because it's not flashy news. During the 1990s, Uganda made huge cuts in their HIV infection rates, and Senegal and Zambia leveled off, as did some Asian countries.

There haven't been reductions in population (except in Europe, but that's not my focus) but there *have* been reductions in growth rates in nearly every country in the developing world (poke around the US Census Bureau's International Database for proof), and this is thanks in part to the spread of contraception education. The cuts by Bush, a sop to the anti-choice crowd, will hinder these efforts.

At least mainline Christian demoninations for centuries have founded & funded...

Right. And the "faith-based" initiatives of the current administration will ensure that only denominations espousing certain beliefs will get funding to do these wonderful things.

If the US is going to be the world's leader, it will have to benevolent to maintain the world's trust. Neglecting developing countries in the name of winning a few more votes is not the way to do it.

FROM: Robert
DATE: Friday November 8, 2002 -- 3:10:46 pm

This "ping?!" started off as a discussion of Bob Jones University, but has turned into a chat regarding religion & geo-political policy, oh well.

dave, I'm actually rather liberal, politicallly, but I attempted to confirm your claim about Uganda, the 3rd or 4th link I hit when doing a google search of "uganda hiv infection rates" had a link to story claiming the evidence for Uganda's success in reducing HIV is quite weak. Again, I have no agenda here - the link: herehttp://www.africahome.com/annews/categories/scitech/1030146099.shtml

FROM: MIKE LARRY
DATE: Wednesday December 11, 2002 -- 7:13:53 pm

Interracial dating a no! hell i'm arabic and i love WHITE WOMEN i just think they are beautiful.....TAKE THAT BOB

FROM: Will
DATE: Thursday December 26, 2002 -- 3:43:59 am

Amazing ... I came across this site in a search for Bob Jones information outside of your regular news sources and the university itself.
Is Bob Jones the home of bigotry? Well, as former student, I believe I might possess a better perspective than some.
In essence, yes, much of the university is bigoted and insecure in their beliefs in that they cannot withstand criticism.
I think that is important ... they don't listen to others and they assume to know what others believe without having really shared time with others and made an effort to understand them.
Even you, Ryan, are very much guilty of this yourself. Look at your first offering concerning this topic. Look how you generalize about the students to whom the political speakers were addressing in the year 2000 - "racist nutjobs."
But, you seem to, because of your discussion with many BJU grads, both those who still support the university, and those, like myself, who have distanced themselves from much of their ideology, come a long way in tolerance.
Tolerance is gained through an openness and effort to learn of others, and not accept the soundbites and generalities or the media and political action groups.
Pretty strong words for a journalist, eh?
Take care all, and thanks for getting this ball rolling Ryan.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Thursday December 26, 2002 -- 12:12:22 pm

Looking back, the "racist nutjobs" comment probably should have been clarified a bit... I believe I was talking more about the administration and "rulemakers" than the student body itself... or at least I hope I was. :)

FROM: Paul
DATE: Friday April 25, 2003 -- 10:36:37 pm

Ryan, you had some interesting points. Earlier on you mentioned that essentially there is no absolute truth. I know that our current post-modern philosophy is one of subjective truth. But without an absolute standard it is impossible to have a cultural moral compass. Of course you disagree with the university's policies on homosexuality. How can an institution or an individual tell someone else that there lifestyle is wrong? And there is the rub. When the Bible is the cornerstone of one's faith then you can clearly see homosexuality condemned as a sin (immorality). Until you have a saving faith in the blood of Jesus Christ, BJU will always seem like a hypocritical place. I know that you've been conditioned (or corrupted- depending on who you ask) by modern thought and so faith in something intrinsic comes much harder to you. Pray and ask God to remove the scales from your eyes and allow you to understand the glorious truth of His gospel, the Bible. I will be praying for you Ryan.

FROM: Carl
DATE: Wednesday April 30, 2003 -- 3:52:31 pm

Bob Jones does not "seem" like a hypocritical place- it IS. Here is a very typical story, I am a graduate from Bob Jones and spent nearly 4.5 years of my life there. Roughly 10 years ago, it was stated from the pulpit during chapel that they would NEVER allow pool tables to be placed in the 'dating parlor' because this portrays a bar like theme of which they will not mimic. Today, if you visit the 'dating parlor' (imagine a large furniture store with only a wide variety of love seats) you will see (at my last count) 9 pool tables.

I can speak endlessly about the hypocrisy of BJU, but the real reason to be scared of BJU is it tries everything in its power to suppress individuality and free- thinking in its students. My Alma mater is an embarrassment to me.

Other random thoughts:

Is Bob Jones still unaccredited? YES this is important despite what the school tells you; grad school can be competitive to get into and this does not add to your application package. Also, you cannot get an officer commission with a non-accredited degree.

I wonder what the payoff was to BJU from the Republican party to change their stance on interracial dating?

Are gays allowed on campus or has the Art Gallery taken a non-tax exempt stance to protect the school’s homosexual ban?

Did you know if you get expelled from Bob Jones you have to wait 2 semesters to return…if it is anything gay related it is 4 semesters

Latent homosexuality is very prevalent at BJU because you can attend 4 years of school, never talk to the opposite sex and nobody would every be the wiser. Try doing that in a frat house!!

FROM: Me
DATE: Wednesday June 18, 2003 -- 8:20:14 pm

Just stumbled onto this post, even though it is around 3 years old now. I am probably more qualified than anyone to discuss BJU--I went there for 10 years (7th grade on up), my wife went there for 12, my sister went there for 7 and my brother for 4 years. I graduated from BJA (high school) and then from their college, but was banned from campus about a year and a half later due to their not agreeing with my chosen career field (entertainment industry--and no, it's not porn). My brother was also kicked and and banned from campus because of too many demerits. While there, I wasn't a problem student and I was active in sports, drama, student body, etc. Even so, I received a "disinvite" to my high school's 10-year reunion because it was held on-campus (I wasn't going anyway) and I am not welcomed on school grounds--as they put it. However, some of those attending the reunion have illigitimate children, drinking problems and arrests. Guess I chose the wrong "sin". I could go on and on with details of my years there, but I wish to forget them. One of my favorites is how they sent my wife a letter requesting donations to the school, the same day they sent me a letter stating I was banned from campus. Classy and Christ-like at the same time. Nice. Yes, many of the things mentioned here in the previous posts are true. For both sides. But when it comes down to it, the question remains: Does BJU do more harm, or more good?

The answer is easy: they do way more harm than good. To their students, the faculty who have been sucked in, and to the community they pretend to care about. I know too many people who have been screwed up by them or screwed over and BJU has shown no remorse. They relish their little "victories" in the name of God. In fact, BJU has taken their screw-overs to the next level and threatened the families of those they are banning (threatening expulsion of a sibling, firing of a parent who works there, etc.--never physical). I have seen the letters and sat in the offices of those making these threats--one such threat happened earlier this year with another reunion debacle. Long ago I thought them to be a good organization, too. Then I was introduced to something called real life. Think what you want about them...if you went there, have never been there or are there now. Just remember their "bible" is not based on THE Bible. It is based on bias.

Peace.

FROM: zigfried
DATE: Thursday June 19, 2003 -- 1:46:04 am

and i'll bet there are plenty of black universities that don't allow whites into them.

it comes down to supply-and-demand. if enough people didn't like the university's philosophy, then they'd be out of business. since BJU is still in business, then it looks like enough people agree with their standards/practices.

now, if you want to talk about big time racists, let's have a little talk about jesse "shake em down" jackson...

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Thursday June 19, 2003 -- 9:21:51 am

and i'll bet there are plenty of black universities that don't allow whites into them.

Name one.

FROM: frank
DATE: Thursday July 17, 2003 -- 12:09:11 am

Bottom line:
BJU is not for everyone. Their philosophy is to train Christian young people to serve Christ. They stand on the Bible and what it says as objective truth; therefore, they have standards and policies that match. By the way:
did you know that the Bju vs. the IRS cases all ruled in favor of BJU in the lower and federal courts, that Ronald Reagen said that the attorney general would not pursue it any farther, and that the supreme court (which was known to be liberally biased) called the case up to them without an appeal (something that never happened before and has not happened again). When you think about, it is scary. The Supreme Court can now call cases in which the outcome is not to their liking up. I did not think that is right. Seems to me that the Supreme Court has become too powerful. Imagine if they were all hard right or left what they could do.

p.s. in every court other than the Supreme Court BJU won on "constitutional" argurments.

FROM: frank
DATE: Thursday July 17, 2003 -- 12:10:50 am

ps did you know Hillary Clinton has spoken at a blatantly feminist school?

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Thursday July 17, 2003 -- 12:38:01 am

ps did you know Hillary Clinton has spoken at a blatantly feminist school?

And what does that have to do with anything?

FROM: frank
DATE: Thursday July 17, 2003 -- 1:14:34 pm

just wondering why the media never spoke out against it, since they are discriminating against men.

FROM: Ryan
DATE: Thursday July 17, 2003 -- 3:33:18 pm

Since when is feminism about discriminating against men?

FROM: Joe
DATE: Sunday August 10, 2003 -- 8:39:02 pm

Enough about BJU. I am sure there is something else to talk about. Do you hate anyone or anything else. I am tired of your site.

FROM: Paul
DATE: Sunday August 10, 2003 -- 10:27:46 pm

I guess people aren't reacting well to that Mandatory Daily Ping Viewing Law of 2001. Geez.

FROM: Mike
DATE: Friday October 24, 2003 -- 10:31:33 am

Can anyone explain BJU's demerit system? The different restriction levels and stuff? Thanks1

FROM:
DATE: Thursday December 4, 2003 -- 5:29:03 pm

FROM: Josh
DATE: Monday December 29, 2003 -- 9:48:50 am

Why you would want to go to BJU for a comp sci degree would blow my mind. One thing....not defending them....but making sure your facts are straight, the school had to open to interracial relationships. The reason I know this is because my friend was expelled for this and I believe it was two to three years later they removed this. Yes BJ has many many problems, and I am so glad to not have been involved woth them for over five years now.

FROM: Joe
DATE: Thursday February 26, 2004 -- 9:04:17 pm

Josh, your comments indicate you did not study English when you were there.

FROM: K
DATE: Monday March 1, 2004 -- 9:52:17 am

this is for mike who wanted to know about the demerits system at BJU.
well, it's pretty gay, i must say (ha ha.....no pun intended!) if you break a rule, you get a certain amount of demerits. here's a couple examples: one of my friends is a freshman at BJU this year. he got like, 10 demerits for not having his face shaved. (that's pretty stupid!!!) and he got a bunch more for going to the wrong vespers. vespers is a little nightime prayer/song meeting thing, i guess. (i don't plan on finding out because i don't plan on bein a "bojo!") poor kid- he's a freshman and it was in the beginning of the year! he made an innocent mistake! oh well. so yeah, that's basically what demerits are. i could easily understand them giving demerits to those who break a major rule (like a girl wearing pants outside of the girls dorms or something) but for going to the wrong vespers????? come on!! i go to a fundamentalist high school and i can't wait till i graduate this year! i'm pentecostal so i don't really agree with the rules or their views on certain issues. my parents told me that they don't want me to go to bob jones, thank god! way to go, mom and dad!! :) hope i answered your question!

FROM: AC
DATE: Monday March 1, 2004 -- 12:24:32 pm

From waaaay back in '00:

"liberal left" is quite unnecessary - you can say "liberal" or "left", I don't think "liberal right" or "conservative left" works any which way.

"Liberal Republican" and "Conservative Democrat" is fine.

Cheers,
AC

PS: Interesting that such a conservative school doesn't change their name to "Robert Jones University" (RJU). I mean, c'mon!, "BJ" U? HAHAHAHAHAHA

FROM: LEJ
DATE: Monday June 7, 2004 -- 4:44:00 am

Well...honestly, it's really sad that some of you are so misinformed about BJU...there is so much bitterness, ignorance and immaturity in many of these messages.

I also find it really interesting that some will answer questions regarding BJ's rules or its demerit system when they themselves haven't even been there to know. Any institution that is going to have success in its organization has to make certain rules and standards. There would be chaos otherwise. Furthermore, when you get your information from one who has a "bad taste in his mouth" from suffering the consequences of a breeched rule, of course one's viewpoint is going to be tainted and/or distorted. The fact is, all institutions have rules.....you break the rule, you have a consequence. That's just life, right?

I hope those of you who have a less than friendly view of the University will someday go and see for yourself. I am confident that, if you are an open-minded and reasonable person, you will change your opinion.

I am a BJU grad and extremely proud of my Alma mater.

Thanks for reading....

FROM: Rebekah
DATE: Monday June 21, 2004 -- 1:40:52 pm

I went to BJU for 2 years and it was horrible. It does provide an excellent academic process for students, but the legalism is ridiculous.

I had to take a year off of college just to become a normal person again after my experience at BJU.

Just two things for evidence of what sort of "higher education" this place is:
*no TVs, all music must be checked, no listening to "liberal" or unauthorized radio stations
*no speaking to members of the opposite sex off campus without a chaperone (because the girls might get pregnant from saying hello?)

While I was there I did have a crush on a Korean male but I was unable to proceed with dating him because I didn't want to go through the hassle of dating someone outside my race!

FROM: Ben
DATE: Thursday October 21, 2004 -- 9:01:06 am

LEJ,
Right on. Any institution that is going to have success in its organization has to make certain rules and standards. There would be chaos otherwise. You hit the nail on the head. That one idea is the key issue that has been missing from this whole "debate". Our government has rules that people from other countries think are ridiculous, but they are necessary for order and peace. I am currently enrolled as a student at Bob Jones, and I just discovered this forum last night. If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask me. Thanks. Ben.

FROM: Ben
DATE: Thursday October 21, 2004 -- 12:53:35 pm

Right on LEJ. I think the idea you presented is the one most often overlooked when people are angry about something. Many people rush straight to their skewed conclusions without examining any of the facts.

Fact#1: BJU is a Christian university that seeks to promote and exalt Christ in all of its policies.
Fact#2: Since BJU is a private institution and receives NO FEDERAL FUNDING, it has the right to do as it pleases as long as its decisions are in line with the Bible.
Fact#3: It's true that BJU didn't accept Blacks until 1970, but neither did most colleges at the time. Hindsight is 20/20.
Fact#4: I am a current student at the university. Feel free to ask me any questions you may have. My e-mail address should be posted with this.
Making judgements without real knowledge is the highest form of hatred, bigotry, and intollerence there is. Thanks. Ben.

FROM: Ryan [E-Mail]
DATE: Thursday October 21, 2004 -- 5:04:58 pm

#1 - Yes, but there have been many bigoted policies in place that are used in the name of Christ (please explain the ban on interracial dating that lasted in their literature until 2000 (reference).

#2 - They *did* receive federal funding and lost it because of their policies. They still receive what could be considered "indirect" funding, though. As mentioned above: "Incidentally, BJU is not totally without federal funding... "Greenville County Council has supplied public monies to BJU, despite it's for-profit status" and BJU's art museum received federal funding as of 1998 (reference)."

#3 - It wasn't until 1974 that BJU started accepting black students, changing its policy only after being told they'd lose their tax-exempt status if they didn't. (reference)

#4 - I haven't checked recently -- does BJU still bar gays and gay alumni from being on campus?

FROM: Ben
DATE: Monday October 25, 2004 -- 9:44:21 pm

It's me again. A couple of your observations, Ryan, by your own evidence, are disproved.
#1: Define "bigot". It means different things to different peoples and ethnic groups. "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ" is how the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language defines it. That means that ALL Americans are bigots in the eyes of most Germans and French (not that we really care). We so often throw around the word "bigot" like it's the chiefest of insults, when in reality, everyone is a bigot to someone else.
#2 Every school, at some time, receives indirect Federal funding through tax incentives or credits. BJU lost its tax exemption, not on Constitutionality (if you'll read the case summary carefully), but on the biased opinions of some of the Justices. The Museum and Gallery is a separate, for-profit entity. It receives money from the STATE (not the Feds) because of the tremendous artistic worth of the collection (it is the largest collection of religious art in the Western Hemisphere). The M&G brings South Carolina a lot of money due to the volume of tourists who come to see it.
#3 Check your facts. The Court proceedings you linked to your last article clearly set the date of minority admission as 1971. "Negroes were completely excluded until 1971."
#4 If the University feels it is necessary to bar gays from campus, it has complete legal right to do so. I think a key definition that gets tragically lost in these types of debates is that of tolerance. People call BJU intollerant because it won't let certain people on campus. That is not "intollerance". "Intolerance" is the extremist Muslim view that we can't tolerate other religions, so we kill everyone associated with a particular group. That is not the University's standpoint at all. BJU tolerates, but does not "accept" these views. There is a crucial difference.
By the way, you said that you visited campus. I'm very curious as to what your impression was. Thanks. Ben

FROM: Random Guy
DATE: Tuesday February 1, 2005 -- 5:19:18 pm

I think too much of the discussion in the comments section has been spent on BJU's bigotry or lack of such, and not enough on the fact that it is an unaccredited university. While it's clearly far from a degree mill, I'm amazed that so many would be willing to spend 3+ years of their life attaining a degree that, when all is said and done, will be worth less than the equivalent degrees of most university graduates.

FROM: Joseph
DATE: Tuesday February 1, 2005 -- 5:30:59 pm

Random Guy:

Your comment provides a nice illustration highlighting the average BJU student's poor judgment.

Nicely done.

FROM: Adam
DATE: Friday February 4, 2005 -- 3:50:58 pm

As a gay former (thankfully) student of BJU, I can honestly make the assertion that calling the school elitest is a gross understatement... the administration only care about the well-being of the more financiallly sound members of the student body. On a different note..I only wish that BJIII and all of the other administrators there felt the need to worry about the sin in their own lives then preach to me about the "Perversion" in mine. I did leave the University on my own accord, though had I stuck around I would have been forced to leave because apparently my imperfection is tragically less acceptable than my kleptomaniac ex-roommate.

FROM: Ben
DATE: Monday February 14, 2005 -- 5:45:56 pm

Okay Guys,
Here we go.
Random Guy:
#1 From your post, it sounds like you aren't fundamentally opposed to the University's standards or education. The whole accreditation barrier has been, admittedly, a thorn in the side of the University in years past. However, if you'll look at the students who have graduated from Bob Jones, they have had no trouble getting into medical, law, or other schools, despite their lack of accreditation. Why? Because Bob Jones has gained a reputation of excellence in academics. However,
#2 I am happy to say that the University is in the last stages of becoming accredited through the TRACS program (TRACS is a government recognized accrediting board).
#3 Ask people who have graduated from BJU if their degrees have been treated as less important than another institution's.
It is important to note that the University has not been accredited in the past because they would've had to submit to gov control over their curriculum. Obviously, that would have been completely unacceptable.

Joseph:
#1 Think for yourself. It will help you out in the future.
#2 Please tell us how you have better judgement than the average BJ student.

Adam:
#1 http://www.bju.edu/admissions/financial/aid.html Paste this into your web browser. On this link, you will find twenty-nine scholarships and other financial aid methods for current BJU students. That, of course, indicates that there are a lot of less-fortunate students (myself included) who attend the school. There is no evidence of pandering to the wealthy. Please give us some specific instances that are not based on pure conjecture.
#2 Okay... Now, please provide all of us readers with some specific instances of sin that each of the faculty members is NOT already working on. Nobody's perfect. But we are commanded to examine ourselves and let the Lord root out the various sins that are present in each of our lives. Your roomate's sin of theft is no worse than your sin of homosexuality which is no worse than any sin that I commit. The distinction is made by who is trying to conquer his/her sin. Is it safe to say that you had no intention of changing, but that your roomate did?

Just some thoughts from someone who cares. Look forward to hearing from ya'll! Ttyl! Ben

FROM: Richie
DATE: Tuesday February 15, 2005 -- 10:07:56 pm

For all those that have commented negatively about BJU, I must say that you yourselves are the ones that are wrong. The University is not perfect, but the fact that you express the bitterness in your hearts shows that you are in the wrong, not BJU. The rules that the University has are not for the sake of persecuting the students, neither do they have them for the sake of gaining favor with God (leagalism), but rather they are for order's sake.
In addition, the President and administration of BJU have never claimed to be perfect. Dr. Jones III constantly admits to short falls in his personal life when he preaches in chapel. He realizes that the only perfect person is the Jesus Christ, who is both God and man.
The true problem is that you are in rebellion against the Law of God, bitter against authority, and are unjustly hard set agianst BJU.

FROM: Theophilus
DATE: Wednesday February 16, 2005 -- 9:45:00 pm

To Random Guy:
BJU may not be my first choice for higher education, but I must point out that just because a school is not accredited the conclusion must be that the degree is worthless. I have heard stories of many BJU graduates that have obtained very high paying jobs in the business world. In fact, one BJU graduate was VP of Dr. Pepper. The reason businesses like BJ grads is that they know that they are more likely to ethical in their job, and the employer does not have to worry about low productivity or fraud. Pre-med and Pre-law majors easily get accepted into medical and law school after they graduate from BJU, and have great success in the fields of medicine and law. The only problem with having a degree form BJU is trying to get political office, especially on the national level. So over all, a degree from BJU is worth as much as a degree from Harvard or Yale, only at one-fourth the price.
And by the way, BJU is now accredited. Next time do your homework.

FROM: JEM
DATE: Wednesday February 23, 2005 -- 8:45:38 am

I find it interesting to hear this talk of BJU grads having worthless degrees and limited potential in the workplace. Yes, BJU grads do have higher ethics than the average person because of the sound Biblical training; however, that is not their only "selling point." As a BJU grad, I have earned two masters degrees, taught in the most difficult schools (also receiving state accolades for my accomplishments), become a principal with service in very difficult schools, and now influence policy at the state level. All of those accomplishments have come BEFORE the age of 30. In job interviews, I was asked the same hard questions and faced the same criteria as anyone else, and my talents/experience landed me those jobs. So, please do not sell BJU grads short and only give us "credit" for our ethics.

Is that success in my life related to Bob Jones? Partly, but mostly I have been blessed by the Lord. This issue of debating the pros and cons of the University seems to get the focus off the real issue -- where do you stand in relation to eternity? That concern is of utmost importance and I hope anyone reading this pauses to ponder that fact.

FROM: Paul
DATE: Wednesday February 23, 2005 -- 10:13:12 am

Yes, BJU grads do have higher ethics than the average person because of the sound Biblical training;

Wooo... wow.

Nice to see this Ping is making the rounds at BJU.

FROM: Joseph
DATE: Wednesday February 23, 2005 -- 4:09:24 pm

The rules that the University has are not for the sake of persecuting the students, neither do they have them for the sake of gaining favor with God (leagalism), but rather they are for order's sake.

Mein Herren:

Das klingt gut. Ja, Arbeit doch macht frei! It's all about order, isn't it?

Deutschland uber alles, and all that and Nazis for Christ.

Heil Hitler!

FROM: Richie
DATE: Sunday February 27, 2005 -- 10:26:30 pm

Joseph,
One is not a Nazi just because they have order in their life. Believe it or not, order is a good thing. If there was not order on the roadways, crashes would be commonplace. If there was no order in court, chaos would reign. If there is no order at school, then the learning process is hindered, thus making the education worth less. The problem with you calling BJ students "Nazis for Christ" is that there are no similarities between the two. They are not racist. They do not hate people just because they are different from them. Yes, they do have the courage to stand up and say that certain things are wrong, but that does not mean that they hate the person that is doing wrong. You may not be able to comprehend this concept, but that does not mean it can not be done. Next time you write in German make sure that you are in a German speaking country. We are in America. We speak and write in English.

FROM: Paul
DATE: Monday February 28, 2005 -- 9:46:24 am

Uh, Richie? America has no official language.

FROM: AC
DATE: Monday February 28, 2005 -- 12:35:56 pm

There are plenty of online dictionaries if a foreign language is too hard for ya to understand.

There are lots of people in America that speak and write in other languages in addition to English.

Take a class, it just might broaden your horizons - no reason to be so Anglocentric.

FROM: Theophilus
DATE: Monday February 28, 2005 -- 12:37:50 pm

JEM,
I find it interesting that you thought my previous posting was ment to be negative. I realize that most BJ grads have more than just good ethics as an advantage. I did not question the fact that you got asked the "same hard questions" as everyone else. It almost seem like you are trying to distance yourself from an "ethically sound" label. By the way, your success is totally because of the Lord's blessing, not just mostly. My eternal destiny is secure becuase Christ has saved me from my sin. Debating the value of a BJ degree does not mean that I don't have an eternal focus.

FROM: Ben Adams
DATE: Monday February 28, 2005 -- 2:21:42 pm

Hmmmmm...Let's think about this. Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Mayflower Compact, Articles of Confederation, today's laws and legal briefs in the U.S....Yep. All written in English. It's not official, but it's what we do in America. Good goin', Richie. I'm with ya'.

FROM: dave
DATE: Monday February 28, 2005 -- 3:12:23 pm

Wow, if you can't tolerate other languages, you need to seriously consider if you can handle this newfangled Internet thingy. 'Cause, you know, there are foreigners using it too!

FROM: Joseph
DATE: Monday February 28, 2005 -- 4:14:52 pm

Richie,

I do believe that order is a good thing--but I'm not talking about traffic. By the way, crashes are commonplace. Are your sad powers of observation the kind honed to a fine edge at BJU?

Hitler began his reign of terror by appealing to religious Christian conservatives. Have a looksee. http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm. Note: this may not be the best source of this kind of information, as I know that I have seen better. But it's all I have at the moment.

The point is, why do people have to be excluded so that the rest may be brought to order? That's the platform that the Nazis worked well with. But, as long as you weren't a Jew, you were safe, right? Similarly, as long as you feel that your soul has been saved, you're safe, right?
No one else matters but those who are like you because they haven't achieved what you believe you have, or simply are not entitled, for whatever reason, to what you are.

That's the seed that grows into all discrimination-based evils.

But that kind of thinking is a lie. Just as the Nazi regime went beyond killing Jews (Jews were simply at the top of the list of "undesirables," which included scholars, Christians who sympathized with Jews, people afflicted with physical and mental handicaps, common criminals and homosexuals and other "perverts."

All of these people were sacrificed by the Nazis in order to build the superior Master Race.

What is the vision of Bob Jones' master race? Sounds like some sort of conservative religious moral superiority nonsense to me.

Only the smallest of persons needs to put others lower than themselves to feel superior. One way to do this is to brand others as somehow spiritually inferior--some sort of undesirable, and exclude them. An entire university devoted to this practice is just wrong, whether or not it promotes order within the school's walls.

Racism is racism. A ban on interracial dating at BJU is no different to me than a 1930s Nazi ban on Christian/Jew marriages. If BJU is more tolerant of interracial relationships now, given BJU's record, I can only think that BJU was forced to capitulate to outside pressures (perhaps a desire to be accredited, perhaps?) rather than rethinking and restructuring its core values. If BJU were a university located in 1930s Leipzig or Berlin, would it have made a similar move, or advanced to even greater bans, like no Christian/Jew marriages?

I think the latter.

Ben Adams:

By the way, the old venerable documents of this country's independence were written in English not because the intended audience was American, but because the intended audience was English, specifically, the English nobility. But, had you decided that you wanted choose a language in order to print something that would be read and understood by the majority of those inhabiting what would become the United States at the time of the Declaration of Independence, and later, that wouldn't have been the easiest decision.

In fact, the German language was very widely spoken and published in the US until the Kaiser, and later, Adolf himself, made that language very unpopular to speak and print in the US.

As for all laws and court briefs, are you absolutely certain of your facts?

FROM: Ben
DATE: Monday February 28, 2005 -- 6:49:53 pm

Okay, here we go!
Paul: Correct, but English IS the accepted language for all things law and business-related.

AC: I hope you're not a natural-born American. If so, your lack of pride in your nation is disgraceful. Granted, hundreds of other languages are spoken within our borders, but English is by far the most prevalent, and, therefore, by our democratic principles of majority rule, English will be spoken.

Dave: Foreigners??? I think you've just proven my point.

Joseph: Hitler began his campaign by appealing strictly to Germany's hurt feelings after the Treaty of Versailles which, of course, was the result of Germany's loss of World War II. It is also important to note that Hitler was a Catholic, not a Fundamental Christian. The differences are astronomical. As Christians, we are commanded to love our enemies (the people that treat us like you do). We are commanded to act like Christ did. When He was crucified, He was still blessing His enemies. Even as they ripped out His beard, he harbored no evil intent for them. While they beat Him until He was not even recognizable as a human being, His thoughts were only for their eternal souls. As they thrust a spear through His side and spit upon Him, He asked His Father to forgive them. Hardly a doctrine of hate is it? Our goal, and the specifically stated goal of Bob Jones University, is to become like Christ. His only condition to being saved forever is that we place our trust in Him- unconditionally. We do not attempt to make ourselves feel important by debasing others. We seek to glorify Christ by telling others about Him. He came to earth from Heaven for the sole purpose of redeeming a lost and dying people, not to inspire the intolerence that is so often, unjustly, ascribed to Him. If anything, Christ is the most tolerant being to ever walk the face of the earth. Although we hated Him, He still loves us. The last verb is in the present tense.

For an answer to the second part of your assertion, Joseph, please see the answer to AC's post. By law, all American legal documents must be written in English. They may then be translated as necessary. There is no hatred here, only love. Please read with an open mind.

FROM: Ben
DATE: Monday February 28, 2005 -- 8:14:18 pm

CORRECTION: Sorry Guys,
the Treaty of Versailles was signed after World War I, not II. My bad:)

FROM: Ryan [E-Mail]
DATE: Monday February 28, 2005 -- 9:08:48 pm

Our goal, and the specifically stated goal of Bob Jones University, is to become like Christ.

So Christ would have said, "Yes, I created you both, but because you're of the same sex, go away." or "Yes, I created you both, but because you're of different races, stay away from each other."?

BJU may say that you should strive to be like Christ, but historically, their policies have been pretty hateful.

FROM: dave
DATE: Tuesday March 1, 2005 -- 3:21:18 am

sarcasm n.

2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.

(per dictionary.com)

I'll have to be less subtle next time.

And as an aside, I'd love to hear the "astronomical differences" between Catholicism and Fundamentalist Christianity. I remember when a "Christian" bookstore opened up in my largely Catholic hometown. When some of the more prominent parishoners when to the store looking for Catholic - oriented books, they were told "oh no, Catholics aren't Christian." That store didn't last three months.

FROM: AC
DATE: Tuesday March 1, 2005 -- 7:27:16 am

Ben:

"AC: I hope you're not a natural-born American."

Oh, my.

I'm actually not - I immigrated to this great country and got my citizenship a few years back (voting being my #1 reason). People like you scare me, which is why I am glad that I can vote now and help keep people like you from being elected.

I mean, really! Who cares where I came from? The point is that a foreign language shouldn't scare you if you see it on the Ping.

FROM: Ben
DATE: