The Daily Ping

The 5,000th Ping will be published on September 14, 2013.

July 25th, 2002

Driving Age

I grew up in the only state in the country where you had to be 17 before you could get your driver’s license. According to this page, it might even be 18 now, after having extended the “learning period” a bit more with the “Graduated Driver License.” It was kind of a pain to me at that age, of course, but looking back I think it was a good thing that New Jersey held students back from getting their license and gave them more practice time behind the wheel.

The other day I was chatting with the famous Chris O’Donnell about this very topic. Drivers under 20 and over 69 have much higher driver fatality rates than those in between. In Great Britain, drivers between 17-21 make up only 4.4% of license holders, but account for 13% of car accidents.

I think I’d be willing to have every state bump up the age for a drivers license by six months or a year (many are already doing this, apparently) as long as they didn’t touch when young drivers get their learner’s permit. Making them wait an extra year isn’t going to magically turn them into better drivers unless they have that extra time to practice.

What do you think?

Posted in Cars

FROM: Chris [E-Mail]
DATE: Thursday July 25, 2002 -- 10:27:34 am
I"m in favor of raising the age for full driving privleges to 18. Its not a matter of 18 year olds being better at keeping the car between the lines, its that most 16-17 year olds lack the maturity to make intelligent decisions about when they should be driving,taking risks, etc. I could go for letting 17 year olds drive between 6 AM and 11 PM, or something like that, so they can get to and from school, work, football practice, etc.

I don't buy the whining from surburban parents that their kids need cars to get to work, most of them are working to pay for car insurance and gas.


I went to high school overseas, so I did not get a US drivers license until I was 17, and I really did not drive regularly until the summer after my freshman year of college, when I was 18.



FROM: Monica
DATE: Thursday July 25, 2002 -- 1:13:58 pm
I'm in complete agreement with you both. I didn't get my license until I was 19, my brother didn't get his until he was 18. We didn't need it. And I think a longer time for practice (keeping the learner's permit age the same--it's 15 years and some months in MD) would be extremely beneficial. It takes a while just to get used to the car... and time is still needed to learn about how to deal with all the other drivers out there. Not to mention how to handle a car-load full of other people, or other distractions.

Plus, if the age was raised, maybe more people would use public transportation. (yay!) I'm guessing the availability of pub. transportation in Europe probably helps teens not feel the need for a license as much as teens do here.



FROM: Ryan
DATE: Thursday July 25, 2002 -- 2:33:28 pm
Doesn't saying these types of things make you feel old? Ten years ago I would never have pictured myself speaking this heresy...



FROM: Joseph
DATE: Thursday July 25, 2002 -- 4:50:43 pm
I certainly would have agreed at 16 when I got my license that this was a bad thing. Earning my license was still met with strict control over my usage of the family's motor vehicle. Basically, I got to drive the car for necessary trips that my parents did not want to make, and for absolutely nothing else. By being granted a license I was now free to be forced to drive other younger siblings and nephews to their destinations (soccer games, etc.); to fill the car with gas when my dad had a long drive the next day or to buy gas for the lawn mower (which I would then have to operate); to go get milk or other family staples late at night or at other inconvenient times (like being called away from a friend's house to go get butter or eggs or Q-Tips or whatever) or the worst trip of all--to be sent to buy menstrual pads for my mom or sister (who was always "too busy." If, however, I wanted the car to go out with friends in, the answer was always solidly "no." Lest I complain too much, the car did offer some improvement over prior situations: it spared me from having to ride my bicycle home the 1-1/2 miles from the closest store, handlebars in one hand and a Fleet's enema in the other, intended for the posterior region of one or another of my colicky constipated siblings or nephews.
All in all, I would have to say that I would have been happier without the burden of the license at such a young age. When I went off to college I didn't need a car, and I was glad not to be sent on errand after slavish errand. To me, freedom meant not having the car.



FROM: Jeani
DATE: Thursday July 25, 2002 -- 8:40:14 pm
I agree that it would be great for the driving age to be 18(ish) -- even though my 16-year-old inside voice is screaming at me right now. But I propose another change: allow people to drink alcohol at the age of 16. We all know most 16 year olds do it anyway, and with the driving age at 18, they would have two years to get used to and bored with alcohol before they can drive. From what I understand, things are done this way (or at least close to it) in Germany, and a friend of mine told me that 16 year olds there aren't obsessed with alcohol like they are here.



FROM: jk
DATE: Thursday July 25, 2002 -- 10:43:09 pm
Yes, they drink at a younger age legally in Germany, but they would not even consider driving after having a SIP of any alcohol because of the strict penalties. They are more responsible in that sense. It costs thousands of dollars (Euros) to get your license since you have to go through months and months of driving school...some people simply can't afford the school and ride bikes all their lives! Anyhow, after spending all that time and money to get their license, they are not going to blow it by getting caught DWI.



FROM: Robert [E-Mail]
DATE: Thursday July 25, 2002 -- 11:48:10 pm
We already force kids to stay in high school until they're 18 to keep them out of the full-time workforce, so why not deny them driver's licenses until they're 18 to get them into public transportation? Sounds peachy!



FROM: Joseph
DATE: Friday July 26, 2002 -- 8:44:07 am
My first sentence of my posting is vague. I meant to say that I would have agreed at 16 that getting a license at 16 was a bad thing. However, I admit, it's not for the reason that the Ping proposes. As a 16 year old, I would have resented being held to a lowest common denominator idiot standard. Just because other 16 year olds are jerks behind the wheel doesn't mean I'll be a bad driver. And as it turns out, I was right about myself. Of course, when I was 16 it was the mid '80s. Because of the new fuel emissions systems, most cars were set for economic driving and were pitifully slow (but great on gas). Cars these days average over 100 horsepower. In the mid 80s it was something like 60-70, with small cars (very popular) even as low as 40 hp (my first car topped out at about 75mph and took a good while to get there, on the other hand it had excellent nimble handling--the perfect combination for a kid). Today, cars are huge (SUV's) and damn fast, even with improved economy. My point is, cars have changed and while they are safer in a collision, they are more likely to be crashed by inexperienced drivers. Most inexperienced drivers happen to be youngsters. I propose that if 16 year old wants to drive, he or she should be limited by the top speed of the car they can drive. This is also a European-like solution. Huge fast cars are taxed quite a bit. Therefore, most young people just don't buy them. Also it makes sense to learn to drive on the small car, to avoid crashing the expensive car. Also in Europe motorcycle licenses are granted on a displacement basis. You have to get a separate new license (and therefore go to school, etc.) for each engine size you want to advance to. Something like this could be used for cars in the US. I still don't agree across the board that all 16 year olds should be kept from behind the wheel because some of their peers are irresponsible or simply inexperienced. However, they should be given smaller slower cars until they gain more experience. This way, we won't simply postpone the problem of inexperienced young drivers that we have now. We won't turn inexperienced 18 year olds loose on the streets with the same inexperience-based problems that 16 year olds have.



FROM: Joseph
DATE: Friday July 26, 2002 -- 8:50:23 am
Here's another thought. Insurance is very expensive for young drivers. This acts to limit the amount of kids behind the wheel. The problem is, wealthy kids get to drive (usually for recreation--which means drinking, etc.) and kids without cold hard cash (those most likely to need to drive to go to work, etc.) are unfairly penalized. The solution to raise insurance rates creates an exclusive privilege to rich kids. While having a diplacement-based license program would also allow rich kids to afford the more schooling and testing involved, no one would be barred complete access to the road based on economics or the irresponsibility of their statistical group.

Sorry for hogging this ping, but I guess I had more to say about this situation than I thought I would.



FROM: Linel Porkrits
DATE: Saturday July 27, 2002 -- 12:02:16 am
Hi I can drive sinse yeesterday. Fun on road the but, i do't see whu peeple have to have a fun time. Is just dont' understaand it .



FROM: Linel again
DATE: Saturday July 27, 2002 -- 12:02:59 am
Pudge me twice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



FROM: Anonymous Reader
DATE: Monday September 9, 2002 -- 9:44:20 pm
I think its bogus that the government wants 2 bump up the drivers license age. I know that there are alot of teen deaths caused by car crashes, but there are many responsible teens out there.



FROM: Kurt Nossaman
DATE: Monday September 9, 2002 -- 9:46:04 pm
Im the anonymous reader just if anyone was wondering.....



FROM: someone who cares
DATE: Wednesday September 11, 2002 -- 4:28:22 pm
I think they should raise the driving age to at least 18 because i don't even want my soon to be 16 year old sis.to drive me around. Also because 16 year olds still act like 10 year olds. I think that 18 is the perfect age for kids to be mature.



FROM: Asher A.M.B.
DATE: Tuesday October 8, 2002 -- 5:20:38 pm
I hate that the government is trying to change the law in Pennsylvania that states," You must be 16 or older to take your drivers test, you must have a permit for 6 monthes in which time you must drive 50 hours with another liscenced adult to recieve your drivers liscence." The pennsylvania government is thinking of raising the age to 18 and older, with a year with a permit, and 100 hours. I'm 13



FROM: Asher A.M.B.
DATE: Tuesday October 8, 2002 -- 5:23:41 pm
I hate that the government is trying to change the law in Pennsylvania that states," You must be 16 or older to take your drivers test, you must have a permit for 6 monthes in which time you must drive 50 hours with another liscenced adult to recieve your drivers liscence." The pennsylvania government is thinking of raising the age to 18 and older, with a year with a permit, and 100 hours. I'm 13 and when they are thinking of doing this I'll be 15. This really makes me mad. If you have any comments address them at asher A.M.B. OK Thanx



FROM: Nicole
DATE: Monday October 21, 2002 -- 8:42:19 pm
I personally think that some teens under 18 are responsable and mature enough but some arn't. I'm only 15, and I'm really excited about getting my license next year, but then again I myself and others think I'm mature enough when others arn't.



FROM: Jennifer
DATE: Monday November 4, 2002 -- 11:37:26 pm
I think that the age should stay the same because I am a working mother and I need my 16 year old daughter to go pick up her little siblings from school and take them to afterschool events. Also since i work until 6 is is nice to have a daughter who can drive and go grocery shopping. They help the family more and if the age was raised i would have to hire a nanny and i don't have enough money for that.



FROM: Beca
DATE: Monday November 4, 2002 -- 11:39:29 pm
I just got my license and my mom and dad tell me how nice it is to have me driving because they don't have to pick me up from school or take me to appointments. I can drive my self to after school sports etc. I can tell that i am helping my family more by having my license. DON'T RAIS THE AGE!



FROM: Candice
DATE: Monday November 4, 2002 -- 11:41:59 pm
I think the driving age should be kept at 16. It does help the family when your child can start driving because they can help w/ grocery shopping and picking up siblings from school etc.



FROM:
DATE: Tuesday November 5, 2002 -- 12:07:29 am



FROM: Terry
DATE: Tuesday November 5, 2002 -- 12:08:48 am
I think keepng the age at 16 is best! Also sixteen year olds get much more practice and have more classes and teachers to help. They have more options at a younger age.



FROM: MisterOmniscient
DATE: Wednesday November 6, 2002 -- 12:53:33 am
Two questions... 1) Is Linel Porkrits actually Jar Jar Binks or retarded... or what the hell is going on? 2) Since Joseph was 16 in the mid 80's, isn't he still a bit young to be using words like "youngsters"?



FROM: Emily
DATE: Wednesday November 6, 2002 -- 9:15:26 am
i am currently doing a research project on whether or not MA should raise the driving age from 16 to 18. This is incredibly stupid. How hard is it to determine whether a specific individual is mature enough to recieve a license rather than punishing an entire generation in a spoecific age bracket not because they are necessarily unfit to drive, but because they were born in the wrong year? I am fifteen and sincerely hope that the driving age proposal is shot down because i am looking forward to having the little piece of freedom that comes with a drivers license. This little bit of independence that i am going to be allowed is being threatened through no fault of my own. I think that the people with the authority to change things are looking at all the wrong ways to do so.



FROM: jeswin
DATE: Wednesday November 6, 2002 -- 6:38:23 pm
i have no idea y they had to change it.soon they might change traviling age to 20. you tell me should they change it to 18??????????????????//



FROM: to jeswin:
DATE: Sunday November 17, 2002 -- 11:04:58 pm
first learn how to spell "traveling" and then maybe someone will listen to you. your comment is the worst and dumbest i've seen in a long time! you must be immature and probably don't drive yet, so why are you even submitting a comment on this page? GROW UP JESWIN! P.S. Learn how to spell!



FROM: Smart one
DATE: Monday November 18, 2002 -- 11:05:13 am
I am doing a report on raising the driving age and I think it should happen. They should raise the Driving Age to at least 17 and lower the Permit age to 14. The more experienced you are, the better driver you are. It also is about maturity. You need to be old enough to understand the fact that you can mess up at times and driving is a time that even the most experienced drivers mess up.I am 13 and I want to drive really bad but I understand that I need to know what I am doing. I'd rather wait to drive then to kill myself and others trying to show off.



FROM: The Travelling Man
DATE: Tuesday November 19, 2002 -- 10:01:38 am
Before you cuss people's ability to spell, it's probably a good call to check the spelling of the word in question. Just a thought.




FROM: Bonita
DATE: Wednesday November 20, 2002 -- 1:00:59 pm
I am against raising the driving age. I am only 16 and i am not sayin this because i will be getting mine soon. It because i feel that not every teen is irresponsible. there are some teens that actually have goals in life and actually have intentions of meeting them. i don't think that others have to suffer because some people doesn't use their brain and goes out and does stupid things. i think that when getting the liscense that the standards should be very strict. if they can't achieve them, then they aren't ready to get on the road and put others in Jeopardy. its as simple as that!



FROM: joe
DATE: Monday December 2, 2002 -- 8:04:04 pm
Insurance companies have found that people under the age of twenty-one are in more car accidents than people in any other age groups. Using this information some insurance companies have proposed that drivers licenses should not be issued until a person is twenty-one. I disagree with this proposition. I think that the laws surrounding driverís licenses should not be changed, and that people should continue to receive their licenses at the age of sixteen.

Some insurance companies have proposed that driverís licenses should not be admitted until the age of twenty-one. These companies think that by doing this they can lower the number of car accidents. New drivers, under the age of twenty-one, are just beginning to drive and do not yet have the experience it takes to be a good driver. Also, new drivers are more likely to drive irresponsibly than drivers above the age of twenty-one.

My opinion on this matter is that the laws surrounding driverís licenses should not be changed. I think that driverís licenses should be admitted to people at the age of sixteen. The reasons for my beliefs are as follows. It takes experience to become a good driver. A person at the age of twenty-one who is just beginning to drive does not have much experience as a driver. As does not a person at the age of sixteen who is just beginning to drive. As my reason shows it does not matter which age a person has to be to be issued a driverís license. A person at any age who is just beginning to drive must over time and through experience learn to become a good driver.

Another reason why I believe that the driving age should remain at sixteen is to lighten the stress on schools for providing transportation for students. If the age to receive your driverís license was changed to twenty-one then school buses would become more crowded and schools would eventually have to purchase more busses. Leaving the age at sixteen would also make life easier for students who do not have access to any transportation at all.

Laws surrounding driverís licenses should not be changed, but remain the same. No matter what age a person is they must over time and through experience learn to become a good driver. Because of what I believe I think that the age of sixteen is a good age to be issued a driverís license.




FROM: mark douglas
DATE: Wednesday December 4, 2002 -- 2:14:29 pm
what's up with this driving age?, When i learned to drive, i was 16, and i havn't had any accidents in my whole driving career. I believe that teenagers should be judged by their personal responsibilities, and not by the sins of others. Please don't raise the driving age!



FROM: PaT
DATE: Monday December 9, 2002 -- 11:01:53 pm
i think its crazy they want to raise the driving age! this is more a burden on the parents who now, even though thier child is almost off to colledge, has to drive them everywhere. granted i myself am to young to drive anyway. adults drink and drive, they get into car accidents just like teens , and yet somehow we are different because we're younger and inexperienced. NO we are the same as they are. they just want someone to blame someone for the accidents. well if you want to blame someone why not blame yourselves otherwise shut your trap! if we are really that bad on the road then our driving teachers missed somthing. everyone gets into accidents. I'm not by any strech of the imagination saying that all the teens on the roads are perfect ( we're still young adults who look for fun ) but i just hate that people say that we cause sooo many accidents. changing the age wont stop accidents! it will just delay them.experience is somthing one only learns when they have thier licence.



FROM: PaT
DATE: Monday December 9, 2002 -- 11:09:04 pm
the drinking age shouldn't be changed. thoughs who want to drink at a youger age will anyway.



FROM: Nicole Face
DATE: Tuesday December 10, 2002 -- 8:08:31 am
I think the driving age is fine where it is. Just because there are dumb teens out there dosent mean the majority of them all are........I think if all teens are able to get a job at 16 that they are responsible to get there liscense at 16.......even when we do get a job, its hard enough to try to find rides everyday. We want to get out and start trying to live, make money, start saving up for college start saving up for a house, we need to get out get a job and start our lives. How are we supposed to do that when they change the driving age.



FROM: Paul
DATE: Tuesday December 10, 2002 -- 9:17:22 am
I think the driving age is fine where it is. Just because there are dumb teens out there dosent [sic] mean the majority of them all are........I think if all teens are able to get a job at 16 that they are responsible to get there [sic] liscense [sic] at 16.......even when we do get a job, its hard enough to try to find rides everyday. We want to get out and start trying to live, make money, start saving up for college [sic] start saving up for a house, [sic] we need to get out [sic] get a job and start our lives. How are we supposed to do that when they change the driving age. [sic]

I have no further comment.



FROM: Joe
DATE: Tuesday December 10, 2002 -- 9:15:51 pm
Hello. I do not believe that you should raise the age limit to have a driving license. I don't have my permit yet but I wish to have one before I am 18. First of all, for of all the older people out there stating that this should raised, well how would you liked it if they raised it a few monthes away from you receiving your permit. You wouldn't and I don't either. It's very unfair to those 16 years old out there that deserve a drivers license because of the few stupid 16 years old out that can't handle it. I would like to work when I turn 16 to support my family and to save my money for when I grow up and I am not working unless I can drive, my parents have lives to and they can't take me everywhere. So I hope they don't because the age limit works for the most. And to kick out the kids that shouldn't be driving, make them have to be on A, B honoral or make the Driver test that much harder or make the school that much better. Really, Do you want to be that grocery store bagger? I didn't think so, so you might as well let the teens do because we are the only ones that will.



FROM: Maneka
DATE: Thursday December 12, 2002 -- 12:17:11 pm
I think that we should not raise the driving age. If you are old enough to have a job, then you should be able to get a license. Of cours there at other irresponsibel 16 year old drivers out there but there are also irresponsible adults out there too. Keep the Driving age the way it is!



FROM: The Dinger
DATE: Tuesday December 24, 2002 -- 3:56:00 am
Raising the driving age probably sounds like a great idea to all of you idiots out there who buy the "it's okay to let illegal aliens overrun our borders because nobody here wants to do the jobs that they'll do," mantra. Who used to do those jobs? No, I'm not talking about picking beans, I'm talking about working at McDonalds or cutting your lawn, etc., etc. I'm only 34, but I can remember when those jobs and many others were done by teenagers.

Can't you people at least try to think beyond the talking points that have been spoon-fed to you by the insurance lobby? Why don't we just raise the driving age to exclude anyone without a university degree? That way, more of our young people can sit around playing video games and listening to ghetto music at their parents' homes while enlightened international students, who are progressive enough to use public transportation, take up even more of the enrollment spots in our universities.

Hmmm, 18-year-old military personel that can't drive a Honda, let alone a fuel truck or troop carrier? If we keep this up, we'll just narrow the legal driving age to include only the safest drivers, those somewhere between 37 and 43. Oh, but wouldn't that have the effect of rendering future generations of persons between the ages of 37 and 43 total idiots incapable of supporting themselves?Where does it end?

Why don't we just slit our own throats and jack the age up to 25? After all, you can't rent a car until you're 25, and let's face it, a 25-year-old can be equally useless, perhaps even more so, if we'll just give him seven more years to sit on his ass.

Wake up sheople.



FROM: person who doesnt care.. lol
DATE: Wednesday January 1, 2003 -- 1:25:00 am
wow.. i didnt know peoples actually got on here and wrote in comments.. im just doing it becz i was looking to see how old one had to be to get a drivers permit.. will someone please answer me this question?



FROM: Ryan
DATE: Wednesday January 1, 2003 -- 2:36:44 am
...more of our young people can sit around playing video games and listening to ghetto music

As soon as I hear someone make a statement like this, I automatically tune out anything else they have to say.



FROM: Jaclyn
DATE: Monday January 13, 2003 -- 8:37:19 pm
~*I am for keeping the driving age at 16! Right now i am doing areport on this in class, and i would like to put a few of good points on this page. I would like to start with telling you that I know that the 16-year-olds have the most driving accedents every year...but sitistics say that it tkes 8 years to be a really good driver. So if we rais the age to 18 then they will be the ones with the most accedents or 17 or 19 it doesn't matter of course your 1st year your going to have so crashes! Another point I would like to say is if we raise it to 18 I think that we are getting to close to the age of drinking and that will only make things worse. Now most fast foods workers are 15-17 year olds..how are they suppose to get to work? They need money for collage, that may mean that kids wont have e-nuff money to go to collage makeing that % of kids going to collage will problay decrease. Also....I know my sister got out of high school be the age of 17....Now she is out on her own, if she didn't have a lisence what would she do for a job? We don't live in a big twon (and not every body does) so she can't grap a cab or a bus. Pluse that cost a lot of money and going to collage is alot of money she doesn't have any to spair! I think this is totally dumb..BIG time! Why change somthing that works? DON'T CHANGE THE DRIVING AGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!



FROM: Jaclyn
DATE: Monday January 13, 2003 -- 8:37:22 pm
~*I am for keeping the driving age at 16! Right now i am doing areport on this in class, and i would like to put a few of good points on this page. I would like to start with telling you that I know that the 16-year-olds have the most driving accedents every year...but sitistics say that it tkes 8 years to be a really good driver. So if we rais the age to 18 then they will be the ones with the most accedents or 17 or 19 it doesn't matter of course your 1st year your going to have so crashes! Another point I would like to say is if we raise it to 18 I think that we are getting to close to the age of drinking and that will only make things worse. Now most fast foods workers are 15-17 year olds..how are they suppose to get to work? They need money for collage, that may mean that kids wont have e-nuff money to go to collage makeing that % of kids going to collage will problay decrease. Also....I know my sister got out of high school be the age of 17....Now she is out on her own, if she didn't have a lisence what would she do for a job? We don't live in a big twon (and not every body does) so she can't grap a cab or a bus. Pluse that cost a lot of money and going to collage is alot of money she doesn't have any to spair! I think this is totally dumb..BIG time! Why change somthing that works? DON'T CHANGE THE DRIVING AGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!



FROM: Ryan [E-Mail]
DATE: Tuesday January 14, 2003 -- 9:28:12 am
OK, I won't!



FROM: Robben
DATE: Wednesday January 15, 2003 -- 9:07:13 am
What about the value of education over legislation? I don't see any problem with a 16 year old driving so long as they've learned the skills and proper attitudes of driving responsibly. Age has nothing to do with the level of maturity attained. Perhaps the powers that be that look at just legislating out a problem would spend more time at looking at incentives for young people to want to take a drivers ed course, and that the course is affordable. Incentives based on what percentage level you reached. Some people have natural skills at things, and some people just need more educating, ... and some people just don't get it. A course could weed those ones out til they're ready.
Remember, education gets you started in a job, and experience allows you to keep it, we-ell, except for downsizing, eh? Driving is a privilege, not a right. But age is a state of mind.



FROM: Nealy
DATE: Wednesday January 15, 2003 -- 6:00:36 pm
Many believe that raising the driving age will increase the safety of the roads, but I do not see how being two years older brings neither expertise in difficult situations nor improves the conditions of the road. Improvement is not like wine; it comes with experience not age. My sister at 18, has been in 2 car accidents... neither of which were her fault but the fault of a 45 year old police officer speeding (love that one don't you) and spinning on the unplowed tretcherous roads of winter. Is she a good driver? Of course but yet she has the bad luck of being in these accidents. Look at the people on the road when you drive, the ones that tailgate, pass in a no-passing zone, or drive with their directional on. Are these teens as our good country believes? No, they are able and compedent adults.

Living in a world of propagnda and lies, we, as a society, know how to bend and twist the information given to us until it resembles indisputable fact used to persudade others in seeing our view. Is it not possible that the insurance companies could mold state statistics in order to raise insurance dues? For they are missing a great deal of the population also blammed for today's wrecklessness... the Elderly. How does raising the legal driving age change this?

I feel that in order to make the roads safe, the permit age should be lowered to 15 and the license age kept at 16 and a half. Also, our parents and highly educational teachers should be "reinformed" of the correct safety guidlines of the road every ten years. Not only would this help the 30-50 age bracket as drivers but also those rising to the driving age have a firm pedestal inwhich to stand on. In the years of age many rules are editted then passed on to the next generation. For example on of my friends never looking in her rear-view mirror because it is quote "all behind her".

Raising the driving age would not only be a hinderance, it would be havocous.



FROM: Nealy
DATE: Wednesday January 15, 2003 -- 6:02:00 pm
Oh yeah P.S. I'm 15



FROM: Jerry Wheaton
DATE: Thursday January 16, 2003 -- 12:48:55 pm
I have to do this term paper on this subject and i tell u what if we don't let these kids have there drivers license at the age of 16 then we would be sending to college far away from home knowing the fact that they just got license. I just got my license about a month ago and i will tell u until i got my license i had no life if u have to wait till your 18 then ur whole highschool life is gone because u didnt get ur license till ur 18 years old. i think that is a shame that grown adults that have had there license for years dont want there kids or grandchildren to get there license at 16 b/c remember parents the sooner they get there license the sooner they get a job and dont have to ask u for money and the sooner u dont have to get out of the house to take them places. so just remember how anxious u were to get ur license when u were 16. thank u



FROM: Paul
DATE: Thursday January 16, 2003 -- 1:07:46 pm
If you're going to write a term paper and not even bother to spell- and grammar- check the thing, we're all screwed.

Maybe the requirement should be, "Learn to use a language before you get your license."



FROM:
DATE: Thursday January 16, 2003 -- 5:00:36 pm



FROM: jerry wheaton
DATE: Friday January 17, 2003 -- 12:16:03 pm
hey paul i tell u what i guess u havent used the internet that much b/c obviously u have no clue about the chat room talk and how we type and stuff on internet. i tell u what this isnt my term paper and im not that worried about how i spell for this as long as i get my point across that the license age should stay at 16 b/c i know u got ur license at 16 and i know u prolly had the time of ur life.



FROM: Paul
DATE: Friday January 17, 2003 -- 1:04:34 pm
hey paul i tell u what i guess u havent used the internet that much b/c obviously u have no clue about the chat room talk and how we type and stuff on internet.

But I just got the Internet on my computer last week!



FROM: Melissa
DATE: Friday January 17, 2003 -- 1:21:50 pm
i think it should be chanded to 18!!!!



FROM: steve
DATE: Wednesday January 22, 2003 -- 10:21:47 pm
it should be raised bc most young kids drink and drive and it gives them a longer time to think aobut drining and driving



FROM: Ryan [E-Mail]
DATE: Thursday January 23, 2003 -- 9:33:43 am
My turn!

hey paul i tell u what i guess u havent used the internet that much b/c obviously u have no clue about the chat room talk and how we type and stuff on internet.

Paul, perhaps we should mention that when we were "new to the Internet" he was 6 years old (or younger).

Now that I think about it, maybe we shouldn't... it makes us sound like old Ping Fogeys.



FROM: Joy
DATE: Thursday January 23, 2003 -- 4:10:24 pm
I think the driving age should be raised to 21 because so many kids are getting into accdients.Or they would go out to party and drink and go to drive home and get in a accdient and they might kill themselves



FROM: Mike
DATE: Friday January 24, 2003 -- 8:45:52 am
Joy you are an idiot, the drinking age is 21 and your telling them to wait till they can legally drink and drive home. You make no sense.



FROM: danielle
DATE: Saturday January 25, 2003 -- 7:29:18 am
i am doing an essay on driving age should be moved up to 21, and i totally agree!there are too many road accidents with youngsters these days, they are showing off and drinking while driving, but most of the accidents are male related. this has got to stop!while injuring yourselves on the roads, you're also injuring others!beware of what's going on around you, and think of others and how you can help stop the dealth rate of youngsters!thankyou for reading!danielle



FROM: dave
DATE: Saturday January 25, 2003 -- 9:40:59 am
but most of the accidents are male related.

Naw...too easy. :)




Christina September 5, 2006, 6:42 pm

well…i think the driving age should stay at 16. however, i think permits should be issued at age 15, to allow for more driving experience, while having parents in the vehicle to give advice and to teach. This way, when they do go out on their own to drive, 16 years olds will have a whole year of practice versus only half a year. And waiting till you are 18 causes a burden on the whole family, because parents will have to drive their children around all the way through high school, or at least be present in the car while they drive. Many families today rely on their 16 and 17 year old children to drive themselves to and from school, sports, jobs, or even running small erands to save parents time. They also help out with the other siblings in their family, so parents can have some time to do the needed chores or erands that need to be done.
These are some reasons i believe the way i do…but please if anyone has any information on the driving age and restrictions for ohio, please let me know. I need information for a project. ūüôā Thank you!!

rich October 9, 2006, 1:41 pm

I think that the age should not stay because right now the price of gas is rising and kids the age of sixteen already are struggling with other things of their own

Brittany November 14, 2006, 2:13 am

I am against raising the age of driving. Being able to drive is a big privelage and a day that all teenagers wait to have. I am currently 15, and i will be 16 in march, which is only 4 months away. If they change the driving age to 18, within the next 4 months, i will be so furious. It really isn’t fare that because some teenagers are bad drivers, all teens have to suffer through the consuquences. Some of us are ready and resposnible enough to drive. Majority of the teens who wreck weren’t properly taught how to drive, or didn’t drive enough to practice when they had their permits. That could be the parents fault. I personally think its up to the parents to decide how old you are to get your permit/license. It really isn’t fare that some states (Colorado for example) can start driving at the age of 15, why should others have to wait 3 more years?

Ashley November 14, 2006, 2:16 am

i have a comment about Danielle saying the age should be moved up to 21. Your making it seem as if only underage kids are the ones who drink and drive. Your wrong, 21 would be even worse. Because getting ur license and being legal to drink all in the same year would defintly cause some issues. I disagree with her.

jk November 14, 2006, 3:58 pm

Phew, it’s a good thing there isn’t a spelling test involved when you get your permit or license!

connor November 16, 2006, 5:31 pm

You can get your temps at 15 1/2 and your regular at 16. That or make it 12 and 13 1/2.

Dance is lmy way of ife November 20, 2006, 2:40 am

I say you shouldn’t make us young ppl wait longer. I have not gootin my licence or permit but it seems really unfair. I can not wait that long I have a life and I am very very responsible. I have things I want to do that I can’t do w/o a licence. The job I want when I get 2 b 16 is 45mins. away from my house. I know my mom doesn’t want 2 drive me there or wait for me 2 get out of work. You realy have 2 consider everything. U no what I mean. But I can c if u don’t reall yknow where I’m coming from oh wait…………. u really should. They allready moved the age for me so know I have to put my job life on hold for a couple more years. I AM REALLY MAD @ THAT.

15 years old January 18, 2007, 2:34 pm

I do not think the driving age should be changed to 18. Statistics show that ages 16-25 are the most irresponsible drivers. This means that even 18 year olds are not driving well! At the age or 16, you have places to go, for example you may have a job or after school activity to go to. Its nice to have your license so that you don’t always have to depend upon your parents for transportation. The government has already changed 25 hours of driving with your parents to 50 hours of driving. What more do they expect? Some people drive responsible and some don’t. Not everyone should be punished for reckless drivers, because there are reckless drivers at every age. I have a very strong opinon on this subject because I am 15 years old and in a couple of months i will be recieving my drivers license. I know that i will drive responsible so it is not my fault for those who don’t.

15 years old January 22, 2007, 1:43 pm

I think that it should stay the same becuase you can take like your little brothers or sisters to school and let your parents have some time alone if you get my drift!!!!

Michael January 30, 2007, 4:21 pm

i thin k they should lower the driving age

just another girl January 31, 2007, 1:39 am

Leave it where it is at and let the driving test determine weather they can drive. Wow! Now there’s a thought!

Jake February 13, 2007, 7:33 pm

i think just another girl is so rite… im 15 and very excited about getting it and i think they should wait til im 16 b4 they raise it… hehe

mikesiska February 14, 2007, 5:48 am

i say the law stay 16 because i am 15 and i know how to drive already i have been reading the drivers book and i understand that alot of 16 yearold drives cause more accidents but not all of the 16 yearolds so i say keep the law but if u change it make it so if you were born after 1992 and have everyone born in 1993 and up wait till 18 thank you

Ur face February 20, 2007, 4:53 pm

I think all these comments are stupid

but i also think that they shouldnt increase the age

********<(0).(0)>********* February 28, 2007, 1:56 pm

They shoud really lower the driving age if u dont you are crushing the dreams of others kids who want to drive. you crush thier dreams and hopes to drive.

United States President February 28, 2007, 5:05 pm

For one your comment is the dumbest thing that I have ever heard. They do not need to change the driving age however because teens need to get around and go to after school sports events and practices. For one all of you adults out here that are saying that it should be raised is just gay and needs to shut up because the only reason you are saying it should be raised is because you dont need to worry about it. If all you were about to be 16 you would be saying it should not be raised to. By the way there are many adults out there that drink and do drugs and stuff that are a lot more immature than most of us younger people. Even the ones that dont do that kind of stuff still can be immature.

laura February 28, 2007, 5:17 pm

15 is a good driving age

joe March 2, 2007, 1:11 am

I’m 14 living in the beautiful city of Montreal and I’m doing a debate for school whether to raise the driving age to 18 or keep it at 16 (in Canada). I was put on the raising the age team, and honeslty i find it won’t make much of a difference if we raise it because the most car-related deaths happen (in Canada) between 20 and 24 (136 deaths in 2003) . After the age of 24, the deaths drop dramatically , which is a good thing. So in conclusion, if we were to raise the driving age to bring down the number of accidents and deaths for the young adults, we would have to raise the driving age to 25. And obviously we would never bring it up another 9 years so the ” to much deaths between 16 and 18″ isn’t much of hard proof.

Kellie Smith March 5, 2007, 9:45 am

I do not think the driving age should be incread.

I think the learning age should be drecreased to 16 so the teenagers have more timre to learn how to drive. Then when they turn 17 they will be able to drive properly and hopefully safely.

They should also bring night driving and motorway driving into the learning for everybody no matter what age they are!!

I say the age should be 16 to learn and 17 to drive!!!!!!!

Someone March 8, 2007, 4:50 am

I read this and just wanted to stop by and give my opinion – I’m really not sure which side I’m on, because it seems I’m half and half. Some of the things I agree with, some things I disagree with, but I wanted to point out that it isn’t the age of the driver, but the maturity level. If a teen can prove that they’re a responsible, careful driver, then they should have the right to drive. This doesn’t mean I’m saying that 13 year olds should be allowed to drive, but around seventeen or so.
Just because some teenagers are immature and can’t prove themselves responsible shouldn’t make the responsible teens have to wait longer until they’re free to drive. Most people around 17 or so have jobs and might need to drive there, and same with school and errands. A parent can’t always drive them there.

But, this is just my opinion. Thanks.

nobody! March 23, 2007, 12:36 am

i think the driving age should b 17 or 18 cause wat if ur not mature enough?????????seriously…think about it!duh…….u might get in2 a car crash or something.if u think the driving age should b 15 or under….then ur seriously stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

haha March 30, 2007, 6:29 pm

i love the two comments-“learn how to spell ‘traveling’

then the other guy aucally tells him that its travelling..so freaking funny…

joey April 3, 2007, 1:09 pm

i think that it’s sorta okay for them to drive… only that all these accidents.. more than 95% of them are because of cars or bikes and studies show that they are mostly 16 year olds… see what i’m saying.. so i’m undecided… i mean im just not so sure that they should have their drivers license at this age…

anonymous

Sean Hogan April 5, 2007, 9:15 pm

i live in ireland across d pond. driving age here is 18 but dey want 2 raise it 2 21 i have 2 rite a debate dat d driving dat d driving age shud b kept as it is. dis is very hard. & ye’re crying over it been changed 2 18. count ur luck

responsible 18 year old May 7, 2007, 4:59 pm

Okay, so to those that want to lower the driving age. That is the dumbest idea ever! I live in germany right now, and having gotten my driving license in the states, i feel that its not that important. What should happen, is that the government should invest on coming up with better public transportaion. The buses here are on time, everyday. It is very convenient. No one worries about driving since there are buses every where, and are clean. Also, since the drinking age is 16 here, there is alot less drunk driving. Kids can depend on the buses to take them home. i do it all the time. I could drive if i wanted too, i just ahve to take an easy test, there is just no point. The driving age i believe should be raised to 18 in the states, and the cost to take the class, should be more expensive and the fines sheould be more severe. Thats the way it is here, and the people here do not complain. IT needs to be raised. and for all you under 16 year olds, you are dumb and immature, you will realize it when you get my age, which is 18. and for those of you who want it lowered below 16, ive never heard anything so dumb in my life, grow up, and think about it…….hard.

Mike July 3, 2007, 3:48 am

I dont belive it should ever be raised i am 16 and currently i drive a 2006 carrea Porsche and i havent got into a crash and that car nearly goes 200 miles/hour. I drive my mothers Bently around as well and she trust me so why dont others. Its perpostrious.I belive elders drive worse that 80% of teens and there a danger to everyone. Does this mean we limed the driving age to 18-60? no because that fucking stupid anyone that has a problem with it should go fuck off.Pardon the language but its purely obserd. I belive its more dangerous to use public transportation. And saying kids that have very wealthy parents dont deserve a car because the only do wrong in it my dad would buy me a lamborghini before he would buy his dad anything . At least 16 year olds can still see and hear and react properly.

Emy October 24, 2007, 5:28 pm

i agree. the legal driving age should be raised to 18. when your 16 you dont have enough maturity to be in full control of a moving vehicle. Teenagers get in more car accidents then any other age group and i believe that if the age to drive was raised, that would help prevent many more accidents from happening.

Dave November 7, 2007, 2:50 am

Emy, what does maturity an full control of a moving vehicle have in any relationship? There are responsible and mature teens out there who actually cares about their goals in their life. If you raise it up to 18, you wouldn’t even be able to drive to work, and cannot save up money for college. If they do not have any money, what would they do in order to afford for college?

mackenzie November 8, 2007, 1:16 am

I believe PA should not raise the driving age to age 18 because school buses will be crowded. Also teachers believe that there are more accadents when teens are 16, but adults have the same ammount of car accidents. This is rediculous to raise the driving age, i want my children to drive at the age of 16 because the more experience, the better.

danielle November 8, 2007, 7:22 pm

i agree i think the driving age should be raised to 21 and you should have to do two full years as a learner driver!
my friends sister was brutely killed this time last year and i think it is apalling! DO SOMTHING OR LOSE THE MATURE DRIVERS ON YOUR ROADS BY DRUNKEN BOY RACERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anonymus November 9, 2007, 5:26 pm

i defintally think that the driving age should be lowered to fifteen. i am almost 15 and i feel that i am mature enough to drive.i also live on a farm and drive anyways and i do fine.isnt it you have to pass the test??? if the kids are not good enough to drive they dont pass… so only the good and more educated drivers pass the test. SO tell me why we would raise the age??? we need jobs and buses cant take us all till where adults!!!!

Concerned Reader November 28, 2007, 10:17 pm

I’m also doing a term paper on this and I’ve seen some horrible statistics. Raising the driving age could actually save over 6,000 teen lives… so yes, I totally agree with raising the driving age!

P.S. I cannot even drive yet and I still think it is a good idea.

Nicole December 14, 2007, 5:35 am

I think that when people say that you are more “mature” at 18 for driving, that they are stupid. How does two years make you more mature? I agree that some teenagers drive crazy and act stupid and end up getting killed because of it.. But it is very unfair to the other teenagers that are responsible and want to have their license so that they can get jobs and stuff. Adults probably get in more wrecks than teenagers… Should they make the driving age 40 because of that!? The driving age should stay 16.

Carmellia December 30, 2007, 1:26 am

well in a way i agree wit everyone’s story except in louisiana you can start driving while you in high school. but some teens really do take advantage of that but me i am 16 and i do not drink or smoke and as far as driving i make sure that i have a licensed driver over the age of 21 in the car with me my mommy shes way over 21 believe me and she trusts me enough to let me drive to the mall by myself

16-year-old January 15, 2008, 3:51 pm

Okay, raising the drivers age would definitely not help. so what if there are a lot of accidents? if the drivers age was 18, then 18 year olds would have that many too. You are really underestimating the maturity of 16-year olds. I am 16 and I feel mature enough to drive. Why is it that we are considered mature enough to pick colleges and stuff to determine the rest of our lives, but we cant even do a simple thing like driving? 60% of those accidents are alcohol related anyway, so it is just certain stupid people.

Kylee January 20, 2008, 3:43 am

I am 14 years old and that just seems unfair to me. I have been looking forward to driving forever. This is not right sure some people are stupid and don’t drive carefully but there are some people who can think straight. If that is passed than that will affect me and you probally would not like it when most of your friends get to drive and you don’t until 18 that would be such a bummer. For two years living in that kind of agony. You may not agree with me but I know plenty of people who would.

Cory February 15, 2008, 12:11 am

I dont think that an entire generation of kids should be punished for a select few people who dont know how to control themselves. When these kids are going through drivers ed then the driving instructor should realize this and notify the parents as soon as possible. If the parents dont do anything about it then they can take the blame for whatever happens. I am fifteen years old and play for my schools basketball team and i think that it would be nice to be able to drive myself to practice without my parents having to drive me. Dont punish me for what other people did.

15 Year Old February 15, 2008, 1:48 am

I. Changing the driving age to 18 will reduce the driving fatalities and accidents due to immaturity and make our system more efficient by reducing gas prices, reducing emissions and insurance prices.

Fatalities and Accident Facts

In Between 1995 and 2004, there were 30917 fatalities in accidents that involved 15-17-year-old-drivers, according to a study by the Triple A Foundation for Drivers Safety.
Of those accidents one-third were the drivers themselves and the other two-thirds were the pedestrians, passengers, and people in cars that the teenage drivers struck
Just in 2003, there were 937 drivers just age 16 that were involved in fatal crashes. In those wrecks, 411 of the 16-year-old drivers died and 352 of their passengers were killed.
And in 2006, around 5600 people were killed just be drivers between the ages of 16-20
16 year old drivers are involved in fatal crashes at a rate nearly five times the rate of drivers 20 or older
In 2007, on average, two people died every day across the US in vehicles driven by a 16 year-old driver.
One in five 16 year olds will have a reportable accident within the first year.
Inexperience is the greatest cause of teenage crashes. Over half the teens (56%) if young drivers use cell phones, and 69% of drivers say that they speed up to keep up with traffic. And 10% of high school aged students that drive admit that they do not wear seatbelts, mixed with inexperience and too often mixed alcohol or drugs with driving making it a lethal combination.
By raising the age the minds of new drivers will be more developed and more prepared to face the life threatening risks that divers encounter behind the wheel. It will allow teens to learn and grow as drivers before they are released onto the roads alone.

Healthier Planet/ Economy
In just one year and annual cost of automobile crashes involving young drivers each year is 32 billion dollars!
By raising the driving age more people would use public transportation. Increasing the economy of the us.

Becca March 18, 2008, 12:43 pm

I’ll be laughing when they raise the age and nothing changes. You can’t define maturity with age. You a=either are mature or reckless, no matter what age you are. I am against the drving age, and stop hammering teens on accidents because not all of them are crazy lunatic drivers. WE need to drive because your fat asses complain about driving us everywhere.

so shut up.

Ryan March 18, 2008, 1:52 pm

^^^ Favorite comment in a LONG time.

rob April 20, 2008, 3:20 pm

i think this is retarded and if we change the law teens will then drive illegaly and get in even more danger then if they get their license at the age of 16

don lewi April 22, 2008, 2:44 pm

I THINK IT SHOULD’T CHANGE BECAUSE WHEN YOUR 18 YOUR PARENTS cant control you that much.

jaypennington May 1, 2008, 3:56 pm

i think 18 is a perfect age so a lot of these young drivers can have a chance to learn some damn responsibility and get over the whole drug and alcohol out of their damn minds

Chels May 5, 2008, 9:47 pm

i am not that old but i think the law should stay at 16 because the the teens of 2009 are getting more mature. we have responsibility and we are not all about damn drugs.

no one May 9, 2008, 7:13 pm

I believe that the driving age should stay at sixteen. It is true that people arent as mature as they will be when they get older but even if was raised to eighteen or twenty-one people would still be just as immature. Also just because someone is older doesnt mean they will be a better driver. Being a good driver has to do with experience not age.

A Dude May 18, 2008, 8:25 pm

I Think it should be raised to 18. The people are more matured and it’s a lot safer.

Brittany July 22, 2008, 1:33 am

Here in North Carolina we can get our learner’s permits at 14 1/2, and can get a license at 16.
I am 17 and currently have a permit.
As long as we are under 18, we have to have a learner’s permit for 1 year before we can get a license.
For the first 6 months of the permit, one can’t drive between 9PM-5AM. Then after those 6 months one can drive anytime.
Same goes for a license.
The person who we drive with when we get our permit has to be licensed in North Carolina for at least 5 years.
Before getting a permit, we are required 30 hours of Driver’s Ed (which is free, unless you fail out) and 6 (maybe 9?) hours of driving with an instructor.
We then have to pass a written test for the permit, and must do a driving test on the road to get a license.
A license has to renewed after a certain number of years years, and a test must be taken each time.

I believe this is more than enough to help someone become accustomed to the road. So why bother raising the driving age? Experience is experience. The ages of these so-called accident statistics would only change. It would 18-27 instead of 16-25, then when the gov’t saw it, they would only rally to push the age higher.
Teenager’s have more responsibility than it seems. Anyone who wants the age raised must not have kids. Or they’re the type of parent who won’t let their child take out the garbage without sunscreen.
I had a job that was 20 minutes from my house. My mom had to plan her week around my work schedule just to take me work. If I need to do something as simple as go to Wal-mart to exchange something (which is 15 mins. away) I have to find someone willing to take me. The reason I don’t have my license is just procrastination. But you can see that it’s quite a burden. Imagine how much worse raising the age the be.

Lisa July 30, 2008, 7:34 am

i have live in Germany for a couple of months now on a military base, with my family. I have a daughter that is 16, and she got her us license way before we got here. We are still not sure what the laws are here yet or if she can get her license here even if she has her American one. But anyway, she has been driving for a little more then a year now and is completely responsible. I trust her 100% she has never got a scratch on my car, and when i did not use it it was hers. Back on topic, i disagree with this i think that the driving age should be lowered to 16. My daughter worked hard to get her license, and i know if i was in her place i would want the same. Most of you said it yourself, if you were in her position what would you want?

amy November 11, 2008, 12:10 am

i am amazed at how dumb people are on this page. i have never seen so many spelling or grammatical errors in my life.

Ryan November 11, 2008, 2:46 pm

Like lowercase “i”s?

Shawn A. December 10, 2008, 10:06 pm

i think that our young americans should be able to rive at the age of 16 and shouldnt have to wait the extra year;its not fair to the young people because before the age was sixteen and now our going to make them wait? i say the age should be kept the same!!!

Amber February 2, 2009, 6:21 pm

I believe that they should lower the permit age to 15.5 that way when a teenager turns 16 they can drive to practice etc. Especially because my daughter is now home schooled and I don’t get home until her practice is ending. She has no way to get to practice and she is a pretty good driver. So I don’t see why she shouldn’t be able to get her lisence at 15.5.

people February 25, 2009, 7:43 am

i think government should raised to 21…..bcoz,teenager now are immature n causes so many accidents…

ME!!! December 7, 2009, 11:34 pm

Teanage driving age should definitely be raised a few years. An average of 2 to 3 people die everyday from adolecents being behind the wheel!! Its crazy and causes unecassary death!! Teanagers have VERY low impulse control, that part of the brain isnt fully developed until the age 25. I think the learners permit should stay the same though to give the teanagers a few more years of practice before hittin the road though.

im stupid December 14, 2009, 4:03 am

i say it should stay at 16 because raising it is not gonna do anything. it will just make them wait another two years. two years cant make u mature. i think its just plain stupid, idiotic, etc.

p.s. im only 12

Laura January 20, 2010, 2:05 am

i currently have my drivers permit. i got it in october and ive had it for almost 4 months. im always extremely busy with after school activities and dance, and im constantly hanging out with my friends. my parents get annoyed with me all the time when i wanna go out to dinner or to a movie or something. i cant wait until im 16 so i can get my license and leave my parents alone.

i consider myself a very responsible girl. but i think that if a 15 or 16 yr old isnt responsible that the parents should restrict them from driving. i dont think that a law should restrict people who are ready for their license.

Btich March 18, 2010, 7:09 pm

FUck All Yalls

girlgirl March 30, 2010, 12:59 pm

keep it at 16,, haha

joe namath April 22, 2010, 6:53 pm

i honestly think that teens shoud have the driving age stay the same it doesnt make a differene if they are older or not. A kid will still get their licens 2 years later they will be exactly the same.

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